Jesus died: we're all saved?

I said:
Something that perplexed myself a little today.

From the mainstream Christian perspective is it right that not only did Adam commited Original Sin - but that Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for this Original Sin?

If so - then with regards to the Crucifictionm why does it matter if anybody "follows" Jesus or not? If the Original Sin is atoned for, then it doesn't matter if someone "believes in" Jesus or not - the deed is done and we're cleaned?

Or are we?

Discussion starter. :)
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I don't know if anybody's already given this answer but, yes. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin....But the condition still hangs....

And if anybody says does it matter to follow Christ or not is truly ignorant. Because the way Christ lived is the way we all SHOULD live and EVERYONE will live the right way wether they like it or not...(God says we will like it :) Rev. 21:4).

Oh and one more thing I've been posting this for a long time now....
 
We have been 'reconciled' and will be 'saved' (All men)

I said:
Something that perplexed myself a little today.

From the mainstream Christian perspective is it right that not only did Adam commited Original Sin - but that Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for this Original Sin?

If so - then with regards to the Crucifictionm why does it matter if anybody "follows" Jesus or not? If the Original Sin is atoned for, then it doesn't matter if someone "believes in" Jesus or not - the deed is done and we're cleaned?

Or are we?

Discussion starter. :)
Click to expand...

Jesus created a bridge. He reconciled us back to the Father of Creation (Atonement/Restoration).

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified (Made Righteous) by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath (punishment/death) through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement (Reconciliation). 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification (Freedom/Pardon) ...
Romans 5:8...


GK
 
According to the story, through Adam man fell and through Mary, Jesus rose and then entered again into the world of God.
The sin of Adam was said to be disobedience.
The Hebrew meaning of Mary(Mariam) is "rebellion".
So through rebellion, Jesus rose.
Disobedience means a reaction, a going against.
Rebellion is a negating of the negative.
Disobedience brings disorder.
real rebellion brings a radical change to one's being.
The point of the whole series of biblical stories is to give one a window of perspective into the inner workings of reality, which will hopefully lead one to wisdom and understanding.
But this depends on whether or not one reads things literally or allegorically.
The simple will always only see the surface of things, the wise will perceive the height and depth and breadth of the mystery and have insight into the undercurrents which move the face of the deep.
 
Ok, well here are my beliefs on this.

Jesus was sent down to earth because of the effect that God knew it would have on humanity, good and bad. In the spiritual realm, after his death, he went through Sheol, routing the souls to one of two places set up in the new spiritual order. Heaven, which until that point had been barred, (the ONLY place being Sheol up until then,) and "hell" though not the same concept of hell as seen in mainstream Christianity in my opinion.

So he did save us, in the way that he opened up heaven to let us in, and closer to God. And he also vastly effected humanity for all time. By his life and his death. In effect, he gave us a model to follow of how to live, and how to die. where before the Israeli people only had laws to go on.

He also made a lot more people aware of the Hebrew God, in effect, opening God up in the Hebrew incarnation to the masses of the world.

It's all part of God's plan, every little thing, and that plan is awesome in it's scheme and proportion beyond any human imagining. It's interesting to say the very least. ;)

God Rocks Hardcore like that. :D
 
So...Jesus died for my sins, I've been baptised, but I'm still not saved from original sin - unless I believe this is the case by following certain theological prescriptions?

Good job I don't have the same problems with gravity. ;)
 
Well, I don't even believe in original sin as it does not really mesh well with the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God and what a god like that would create. That is the core of my belief, and I suss everything else out according to that.

Jesus and his role along with the rest.
 
I said:
So...Jesus died for my sins, I've been baptised, but I'm still not saved from original sin - unless I believe this is the case by following certain theological prescriptions?

Good job I don't have the same problems with gravity. ;)
Click to expand...

Dude, that's not fair comparing trying to explain God to trying to explain gravity, one of God's creations from my perspective. Isn't one thing simpler? Ya see what I mean... :)
 
Once a person analyzes where the notion of original sin came from (certain interpretations of Genesis stories), one can then begin to deconstruct the myths.
Really we have a basic story (at least it looks basic on the surface) which is how literalists see it.
They, taking it at face value, then create a whole edifice which they proceed to build, upon said foundation (basic creation story/fall of man).
But, as can be seen in the deconstructing Genesis thread, there is a lot more to the story than just what immediately meets the eye.
And there are a lot of ways of reading it, as well as many levels of meaning.

The point here is that once a person sees that the foundation for the need to be saved is a faulty interpretation of ancient text, then one can continue on with their lives without the guilt and fear which heaven and hell religions create in the minds of so very many people.
 
My current view ....

I said:
... is it right that not only did Adam commited Original Sin - but that Jesus sacrificed himself to atone for this Original Sin?

... the deed is done and we're cleaned?
Click to expand...

Great thread topic ... I'll offer my current view on Jesus' "Sacrifice" and the meaning of "atonement", or rather how His sacrifice made a way for us to be reconciled back to God. Oh, sorry for the length of this post. :cool:

God created all things, just as He knows the beginning from the end. It is true that all things in life are part of Gods plan, but that doesn't mean that ALL things are willed by God directly. Since we as humans have a will of our own (Part of Gods plan) He has afforded us certain freedoms, such as living life on our terms. The problem with living life on our terms is that we are quite selfish, and can be very cruel to those we share our world with.

Jesus comes into play in that God sent Him to show us the way, the truth, and the life. God sent Jesus to not only show us how to live, but to also defeat sin, and to defeat death itself (Which He did). He was NOT punished by God, as He was guiltless, but Jesus did bear our sins in that we scourged Him and nailed Him to the cross. He "payed" for our sins on the cross only in that He suffered because of our sins/actions (This is my current understanding).

God didn't punish Him, but rather He allowed Jesus to be subject to our cruelty. He did so, that Jesus would be made perfect through suffering, never giving in, and never resisting Gods perfect law, which is love. Surely, being Gods son, He could have tapped in to a power that could have prevented Him from being tortured as He was, and from dying after several hours of agony on the cross. But Jesus chose the high road. He chose to submit to Gods perfect law of love. He remained obedient to God's perfect law even amidst such suffering and cruelty.

It was a display of His great love for us - "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Who are His friends? Those who would love others as He loved us - To have a love so strong for our fellow man that we would die for them. Which is exactly what we are called to do. We are to bury the old man, and be reborn in the Spirit.

God didn't punish Jesus at all. We (Mankind) forced our cruelty on Him, whereby He suffered due to our wickedness. God may have known this would happen, but it wasn't Him who did it - We did. It was God's will inasmuch as He knew that in order for us to get back to good, Jesus (His Son) had to live that perfect life of love, and defeat sin and death, which in turn made a way for all men to be reconciled to the Father.

God knew that Christ would be beaten, bruised, and crushed by our hands, yet it pleased God that His son was willing to go through such pain, living a perfect life of love (despite), so that all man might come to know life in Him, and be reconciled back to our Creator. I call this divine justice (Just for the Unjust).

The wages of sin are death. Just as Adam sinned, and we all experience the effects of his sin (Mortality) we each also experience the effects of the sins of others."For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive".

We are in Adam in as much as we are born of Adam, "Born of flesh". We are in Christ in as much as we are reborn in Christ, “Born of Spirit”. (That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit). Just as we Inherited death through being born of Adam (Flesh), we inherit life through being reborn in Christ (Spirit).

Christ became a life giving Spirit because of the perfect life of love that He lived. We have access to His Spirit, which in turn gives us life. Without this Spirit we are in what some might call a metaphorical grave, and we will remain there until we allow ourselves to be made new creatures in Christ/His Spirit.

The atonment is in God's willingness to allow Jesus to do what He did for us, and in Jesus' willingness to suffer as He did and die by our hands, so that He might bring us to God, and in our willingness to walk in the Spirit that Christ now gives us access to.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV)

What it comes down to is that the wages of sin are death, and that Christ did something no other could do, which is live a perfect life of obedience. By doing so, He was able to defeat death for us, and now - Just as all die because of Adams sins - All whom are reborn in the Spirit will live because of Christs perfect life. The Spirit gives life; the Lord (Jesus) is that Spirit. (We live in Him and through Him).

GK
 
Gatekeeper said:
Without this Spirit we are in what some might call a metaphorical grave, and we will remain there until we allow ourselves to be made new creatures in Christ/His Spirit.
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Does this offer extend beyond the physical grave?
 
I said:
So...Jesus died for my sins, I've been baptised, but I'm still not saved from original sin - unless I believe this is the case by following certain theological prescriptions?
Click to expand...


That may be what some forms of Western Christian theology maintain, but the Orthodox Church teaches that, among other reasons, Jesus died because death was necessary for there to be a Resurrection. His Resurrection opened the door to our own resurrections. Baptism is a beginning, not the end. It opens a door, but one must still walk through it, to the best of ones ability. Salvation is a process, not an event.
 
His power of life overcomes death; however, to obtain it you have to accept it, and to accept it you must believe in it, and to believe it you must humble yourself. God sent his Son to die for our sins so we might be saved; however, it is a gift that we can have only if we accept that Christ is Lord and believe that He died and resurrected for us and wants to bring us into His kingdom, but we must acknowlege that we are sinners and ask for forgiveness in Jesus' name whom God the Father has put all things under.
 
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