Jesus died: we're all saved?
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Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% I challenge people to challenge my faith...Its a rock that cant be moved.Drachen said:
The best stunt that Satan has pulled off, is to make people think he doesn't exist. Now, if the scholars can pull off the stunt of making people think Jesus doesn't exist, then what do we have left? Nothing but today, and no reason to live well, do right, think of others first. We have the beginnings of anarchy. Not very smart of the scholars to attempt to set such a movement rolling...wouldn't you think? Society in absolute chaos, unless and/or until the power mongers declare that they are God, and man should obey them...then maybe it is rather clever of the scholars, after all.Sacredstar said:
However, I find it very difficult for the scholars to prove anything as noted above, without presenting concrete proof that there is no such thing as love.
Dr. Lipton is printing now, what my mother told me 35 years ago. Like the US Federal government being made up of three parts, and the Christian Trinity being made of three parts, Man is comprised of three parts - body - mind - spirit.
And when any one of the three fall ill, the tendency is for the other two parts to suffer as well. Likewise if one of Man's parts is "super charged" with profuse energy, it tends to lift the other two parts back into a better equalibrium.
This all may be repackaged in some neat new boxes and bows, but it is the same old song and dance that has been going on for centuries.
Nothing new under the sun
v/r
Q
p.s. Dear Sacred...when did you and I become "senior members" ?
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Blue
Member
With due respect, Quahom,
I do not understand this statement:
"if the scholars can pull off the stunt of making people think Jesus doesn't exist, then what do we have left? Nothing but today, and no reason to live well, "
You seem to be saying no one can be altruistic, or kind, or have empathy and value honesty, without believing Jesus existed.
Surely,even a cursory view of world history shows this to be wrong.
Human beings before Jesus could behave perfectly well, with genuine humanity and understanding withouit ever having knowledge of him.
Today, much of the world would not describe itself as 'Christian' and what you have said seems to suggest that all those millions are not capable of humanity, love, kindness and atruistic empathy with others.
What you say also seems to condemn atheists. Why should an humanitarian atheist not also be thoroughly rational and humane, and altruistic in their beliefs and motivations, while actually denying Jesus?
Surely - in reason and rationality - you have every reason to "live well" as you put it, just as well as a Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Pagan, Sikh, follower of Islam,or any other religion or 'no religion'?
What you always have left is your heart, your affective nature and nurture, Quahom... and that is not dependent in some way on the God you may worship. The latter only arises from your basic affective nature and nurture. Is that not the case?
I do not understand this statement:
"if the scholars can pull off the stunt of making people think Jesus doesn't exist, then what do we have left? Nothing but today, and no reason to live well, "
You seem to be saying no one can be altruistic, or kind, or have empathy and value honesty, without believing Jesus existed.
Surely,even a cursory view of world history shows this to be wrong.
Human beings before Jesus could behave perfectly well, with genuine humanity and understanding withouit ever having knowledge of him.
Today, much of the world would not describe itself as 'Christian' and what you have said seems to suggest that all those millions are not capable of humanity, love, kindness and atruistic empathy with others.
What you say also seems to condemn atheists. Why should an humanitarian atheist not also be thoroughly rational and humane, and altruistic in their beliefs and motivations, while actually denying Jesus?
Surely - in reason and rationality - you have every reason to "live well" as you put it, just as well as a Buddhist, Jain, Jew, Pagan, Sikh, follower of Islam,or any other religion or 'no religion'?
What you always have left is your heart, your affective nature and nurture, Quahom... and that is not dependent in some way on the God you may worship. The latter only arises from your basic affective nature and nurture. Is that not the case?
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
Blue said:
I have not condemned anyone; who am I to condemn, when I am not the one judging? Just because you stand in judgment doesn't mean you are condemned. Does every person who goes to trial get convicted? You have misunderstood.
Blue said:
No. My belief is validated by God. That is the whole point of believing. In the same way that you say I have no evidence to back up what I am saying, the Pharisees told Jesus that he had no evidence. But wisdom will be proven right by her actions.
And incidentally, when did I ever tell you to repent and be baptized, Blue? What makes you think that I care whether or not you come to call Jesus your Saviour? Isn't it you who are assuming this? You have misunderstood.
Blue said:
There are many different versions of the truth, but in the end there is only one truth. For many years Europeans sincerely believed that the world was flat. This didn't make the world flat, though.
Blue said:
If I wanted to question whether or not Jesus is the Christ, I would hang out in the Monotheism section. That's what it's for. In here, I assume the fact that Jesus is the Christ, so that I can discuss issues with other Christians without being blind-sided by people who don't believe in him.
Blue said:
It is not what I have declared; it is what God has declared. But in the same way, are you not simply declaring that I am wrong in my assertions, and by this are you not convicted as false by your own logic?
Blue said:
And I don't recall saying anything of the kind either. Did I not say that none of us are special, and that we will all stand before God? And does God not say that we will all be judged according to our actions? And if this is the case, and if Jesus is the Christ, will God not reward those who held their faith as truth, even amid persecution?
Blue said:
Who's proud now?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Blue
You said:
I am sorry if I may sound harsh, but hopefully it is in the cause of reason and rationality, and not irrationality. Your affective views as posted do appear to be intolerant. I would suggest mine at least border on being tolerant of other peoples and faiths.
Im sorry but I have seen nothing from you showing tolerance for people believing in their respective faiths. Namely Christianity. You have not seen the Christians on this forum Telling people to repent because they will be doomed.. All we do here is to discuss our beliefs with other people and discuss their beliefs and their faiths. We are not here to cast stones. We are not here to discuss the sliver in your eye. All we want to do is have intelligent conversation with other people. With all due respect, you are the one that so adamantly opposes the fact that we are convicted that our faith is the one true faith. We dont come on here claiming to everyone that they are wrong for believing what they do. You have taken every opportunity to attack Christians with our conviction. We have never told you that you are wrong to not share our beliefs. We have never told anyone that they are wrong for believing what they do.. We would just like the opportunity to be respected As intelligent human beings with something to add to this world we call Comparative Religion!!
I find your narrow minded attitude towards Christians as a thing to be sad about. You try to come across open minded.. you claim WE are narrow minded but we arent attacking you at every turn because we know theres no point in it. You are not open to discussion with us in any sort of friendly manner. Its always in the mode of attack.
You should go back and read your posts. Theres a chance you might find some enlightenment.
Faithful Servant
You said:
I am sorry if I may sound harsh, but hopefully it is in the cause of reason and rationality, and not irrationality. Your affective views as posted do appear to be intolerant. I would suggest mine at least border on being tolerant of other peoples and faiths.
Im sorry but I have seen nothing from you showing tolerance for people believing in their respective faiths. Namely Christianity. You have not seen the Christians on this forum Telling people to repent because they will be doomed.. All we do here is to discuss our beliefs with other people and discuss their beliefs and their faiths. We are not here to cast stones. We are not here to discuss the sliver in your eye. All we want to do is have intelligent conversation with other people. With all due respect, you are the one that so adamantly opposes the fact that we are convicted that our faith is the one true faith. We dont come on here claiming to everyone that they are wrong for believing what they do. You have taken every opportunity to attack Christians with our conviction. We have never told you that you are wrong to not share our beliefs. We have never told anyone that they are wrong for believing what they do.. We would just like the opportunity to be respected As intelligent human beings with something to add to this world we call Comparative Religion!!
I find your narrow minded attitude towards Christians as a thing to be sad about. You try to come across open minded.. you claim WE are narrow minded but we arent attacking you at every turn because we know theres no point in it. You are not open to discussion with us in any sort of friendly manner. Its always in the mode of attack.
You should go back and read your posts. Theres a chance you might find some enlightenment.
Faithful Servant
My comment was not meant for all faiths, or atheists, etc. I should have been more concise...I will do so here. If Jesus is taken away from the "Christian", Blue, we would have nothing left. There is no Christianity without Christ. More than a faith, it is a way of life. It gives a great many Christians purpose. If there is nothing more to look forward to after death than, a grave, what good is living for?Blue said:
Not everyone feels this way of course, however, the Christian faith has molded many of us to this expectation, and hope. So we try to do what is good and right, because our faith compells us to try to "please" our God, and find pleasure in our selves when we believe we have pleased God. Christianity also gives many of us a sense of comfort in the belief that we are going to live forever (or exist as a viable entity). Finally, I look forward to one day, touching the face of God. From one carpenter to another, we can have conversations on wood butchering and cabinet making, while He gives me a tour of His creation (the universe).
I for one do not want to place my faith in anything but Jesus. Certainly not in man. To do so is an automatic set up for failure (in my opinion).
These "scholars" are attempting to ruin Christianity, not seek the truth for truth's sake. It is simply another attempt to attack Christianity, and I find that very interesting, and sad.
Also, roughly 1/3 rd of the population of earth professes to be of the Christian persuasion (of one type or another) 2,000,000,000 people is no small chunk of change.
I respect other peoples' rights to choose for themselves what they believe is best. I expect the same courtesy. Alas, some people do not concur and seem to take delight in attempting to debunk what I and many others hold dear.
That is truly a shame.
v/r
Q
Quick Question
I'd just like to ask a quick question that has little to do with this thread.
Some Christians believe that you will only go to Heaven if you accept Jesus as the son of GOD. What happened to people when they died before Jesus was born? Did they go to hell because they didn't accept jesus as their GOD?
I'd just like to ask a quick question that has little to do with this thread.
Some Christians believe that you will only go to Heaven if you accept Jesus as the son of GOD. What happened to people when they died before Jesus was born? Did they go to hell because they didn't accept jesus as their GOD?
Re: Quick Question
We don't have to be "Christians" to go to heaven. We have to have a Christlike faith within our hearts, whether we know the name of Jesus or not, we know He is there. Hard to explain, but easy to understand. The laws of life and death are imprinted in every man's essence. We know better, and we know what is wrong, and what is right. We know God would never abandon us, but we attempted to abandon Him (still are to this day).
Christianity is not a name, or a religion, it is a way of living.
v/r
Q
Grace is a wonderful thing. It allows God to invoke the "grandfather clause". Many did not meet Jesus, but believed in a Christ to come, and lived in accordance with that belief.Kaspar said:
We don't have to be "Christians" to go to heaven. We have to have a Christlike faith within our hearts, whether we know the name of Jesus or not, we know He is there. Hard to explain, but easy to understand. The laws of life and death are imprinted in every man's essence. We know better, and we know what is wrong, and what is right. We know God would never abandon us, but we attempted to abandon Him (still are to this day).
Christianity is not a name, or a religion, it is a way of living.
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Q
B
Bandit
Guest
Re: Quick Question
I see Jesus as an intercessor and a mediator between God and man.
I believe he was a man (son of man) with the spirit of a mortal man who was the first to be given the indwelling of the spirit of God making him (Son of God). In other words BEGOTTEN of the father, because God begets the spirit of men. (like a spirit of adoption)
He begets us all, the same way, only Jesus was the first.
Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead, in that God raised Jesus up from mortality to immortality.
I do believe he is the Messiah and Savior and that he was here to manifest the invisible God in his life and to show us there is a God, so that we can SEE God through and in him. I see Jesus as more than just a prophet.
I see the blood of Jesus reaches all of the righteous in the O.T., and in the N.T. clear up to today.
Here is one thing Jesus said about what you are asking. I hope this helps a little.
Luke12:8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:12:9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
I am a rare case of Christian so I can only speak for myself. I have never believed Jesus is God, but rather the Son of God and the first begotten of the father spiritually. I see God the same way the Jews see Him.Kaspar said:
I see Jesus as an intercessor and a mediator between God and man.
I believe he was a man (son of man) with the spirit of a mortal man who was the first to be given the indwelling of the spirit of God making him (Son of God). In other words BEGOTTEN of the father, because God begets the spirit of men. (like a spirit of adoption)
He begets us all, the same way, only Jesus was the first.
Jesus is also the firstborn from the dead, in that God raised Jesus up from mortality to immortality.
I do believe he is the Messiah and Savior and that he was here to manifest the invisible God in his life and to show us there is a God, so that we can SEE God through and in him. I see Jesus as more than just a prophet.
I see the blood of Jesus reaches all of the righteous in the O.T., and in the N.T. clear up to today.
Here is one thing Jesus said about what you are asking. I hope this helps a little.
Luke12:8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:12:9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Re: Quick Question
I can appreciate your view. I also recall a point where God the Father spoke out loud about Jesus (shortly after his choice to be baptised by his cousin John). He said, "This is my son, in whom I am pleased..." (paraphrased).
The personal "ownership" of one being for another did not go unnoticed on me. It reminds me of a time when I overheard neighbors commenting about me being my father all over again. Yes, I am different than my Dad, but I am also him in many ways. One could say I have my father in me, and I am in him. Unique, but the same.
Just a thought.
v/r
Q
Hello Bandit,Bandit said:
I can appreciate your view. I also recall a point where God the Father spoke out loud about Jesus (shortly after his choice to be baptised by his cousin John). He said, "This is my son, in whom I am pleased..." (paraphrased).
The personal "ownership" of one being for another did not go unnoticed on me. It reminds me of a time when I overheard neighbors commenting about me being my father all over again. Yes, I am different than my Dad, but I am also him in many ways. One could say I have my father in me, and I am in him. Unique, but the same.
Just a thought.
v/r
Q
Dor
Bible Thumper
Faithfulservant check your PMs.
S
Sinner
Guest
Almost all philosophies will agree that the human condition is one of torment. I am a christian and I will agree with that. Jesus did not come to instantly fix the world. Jesus loves us in the way that he wants to work with us in helping our human condition. Jesus didn't say that I'm going to die you are all saved, he said I'm going to die so that you might be saved. WE HAVE TO CHOOSE GOD; life seems to be harder now that I'm a christian, but it is more complete, fuller. I don't think that the point of life is to make it as good as it can be, the point of life is to make it as full as it can be through living with Jesus. Through the cross, and the cross only is this made possible. His love for you.
this is one smart guy. everything he said is true, and to whoever it was asked if he was more compassionate and loving than God is. The answer to that is clearly We all are. God killed and tortured his own son to prove a point. he could of forgiven everyone without doing that but noooo.aladdin said:
and whats with asking some poor sheep farmer to kill his first born. and what about drowning everyone, or condeming many thousands of people to eternal pain and suffering because they wouldnt kiss his ass.
E
eccles
Guest
There was no Adam, no Eve and no Original Sin. Genesis is all fable.
It would be nice to try and be part of the discussion, rather than just make statements at the community.
S
soleil10
Guest
Going back to the first post on this thread.
Since we are still born with the original sin, we have to realize that the salvation obtained through the resurrection of Jesus and through the Holy spirit is a spiritual one. It does not reach the physical.
This is due to the fact that Jesus was killed and lost his physical body. He carried the Godly and sinless seed of God. If Jesus could have lived and start a family he would have created a sinless lineage were God can dwell and that Satan cannot claim. Jesus came as the second Adam to restore the failure of our first Ancestors.
Jesus is the first true ancestor. This is why it is said in the bible that before Abraham Jesus was.
Since we are still born with the original sin, we have to realize that the salvation obtained through the resurrection of Jesus and through the Holy spirit is a spiritual one. It does not reach the physical.
This is due to the fact that Jesus was killed and lost his physical body. He carried the Godly and sinless seed of God. If Jesus could have lived and start a family he would have created a sinless lineage were God can dwell and that Satan cannot claim. Jesus came as the second Adam to restore the failure of our first Ancestors.
Jesus is the first true ancestor. This is why it is said in the bible that before Abraham Jesus was.
S
soleil10
Guest
This is interesting. Do you have a link to this sufi text
Yes Lucifer was #1 until God created his children. As they grew, Lucifer saw the love that God as a parent had for his children.
Lucifer started to feel and believe that God was loving him less even if it was not true. Feeling a lack of love became the early cause for Lucifer' motivation to rebel against God and manipulate Eve.
Lucifer needed to realize that the source of love was now through Adam and Eve.
It is like if a long time employee in a company has to now support and follow the children of the owner that he was used to work with and respect. As his children they are inheriting the business. This employee may feel a lack of love and refused to accept the new bosses who may be immature and less experienced
As Jesus pinpoints in Matt 15: 11-19,"the heart" as the source of all iniquities. Jesus is testifying that the root of sin within the human heart
Satan will not be separated from God forever. God loves his enemies even satan. Adam and Eve put Lucifer in the position of authority by rejecting God's commandment. It is up to man to claim dominion back from Satan. Jesus did not surrender to satan and was victorious until death. Satan has no claim on Jesus. He was the first one totally loyal to God.
shawn
Well-Known Member
There are certainly lots of variations on the basic story (crucifixion/Jesus story/what is man), each with their own devoted groupies ...ehr... adherents.
Some are quite different, others only have certain elements altered.
Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it correct or even relevant.
Some are quite different, others only have certain elements altered.
Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it correct or even relevant.