Resolving Ultimate and Conventional Truth

By George I think he's got it!

You are the second person to say this. So what is it that I have 'got' exactly? Because apparently I am too dense to see it.

Well none of us are coming at it from the same direction and we a re all perfectly fine with we already feel we know.

I am not fine with what I know. That was my point. Not that we are going to come to some grand conclusion. The conclusion for me is still very vague.
 
You are the second person to say this. So what is it that I have 'got' exactly? Because apparently I am too dense to see it.
I am not fine with what I know. That was my point. Not that we are going to come to some grand conclusion. The conclusion for me is still very vague.

You know what I like about you the most? That you are so genuine about your process, even when it isn't giving you the answers you desire. I find that charming and very human, thanks for that!
I know that in everyday language this stuff sounds esoteric and maybe even nonsensical. When I say you've got it, I was referring to the fact that you had come to an end of the ready made explanations and simply don't know what the hell I'm talking about. When a person is in that state, and they accept the fact that they don't know, in that moment there is the possibility of going beyond the extensive storehouse of ideas into something you may not have ever seen before, something totally new. In Zen, for example, a novice monk is given a nonsensical question to answer, and any answer he gives to the master is all wrong. It is frustrating and drives the novice out of his mind, and in the silence that follows, the crazy question, what they call a "Koan" becomes completely clear. But you see, without expending all that mental energy on solving the unsolvable, he comes to the place where discursive thought, the kind of thinking wherein you hold a talk with yourself, ceases. In that cessation of thought the mind perceives things directly. But it cannot do so unless the thinking part is quiet for a bit.
When you say you don't know, that is when you are the closest to understanding great things.

It's my way of being playful to share these things with my friends, so it's okay if it seems nutty. :)

If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended
That you have but slumbered here, while these visions did appear
And this weak and idle theme, yielding no more than a dream...
 
I am not fine with what I know. That was my point. Not that we are going to come to some grand conclusion. The conclusion for me is still very vague.

You seem fine with it when you say:

And they are all merely that. Perceptions. Perception doesn't change reality. It changes how we each individually look at reality.

Basically this is this and that is that so to you what I said was not relevant, No?
 
No. What I said (or if it wasn't clear, what I meant by what I said) is that what works for you does not work for me. That doesn't mean what you said is irrelevant. It says that your solution that works for you (and is a perfectly fine solution) does not help me make any headway in my quest. I am not disparaging your answer as it is one that works for you and a whole lot of others as well. Hopefully that is more clear?
 
You know what I like about you the most? That you are so genuine about your process, even when it isn't giving you the answers you desire. I find that charming and very human, thanks for that!

Why thank you. That is the nicest thing someone has said to me this week! Though it is only Tuesday. Hah!

But seriously I do appreciate the sentiment. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I do believe my process is more genuine than your average bell curve. Though not everyone would agree with you that my being genuine is a good thing! lol.

And being human, my process isn't always as genuine as it should be. Take politics in this country. PLEASE! Take it somewhere. Anywhere! Urrrr, but I digress. My emotions are so wound up in the insanity of political discourse in this country, for example, that it is very hard for me to keep any kind of perspective. And my process is shot to hell in short order. ***Sigh***
 
No. What I said (or if it wasn't clear, what I meant by what I said) is that what works for you does not work for me. That doesn't mean what you said is irrelevant. It says that your solution that works for you (and is a perfectly fine solution) does not help me make any headway in my quest. I am not disparaging your answer as it is one that works for you and a whole lot of others as well. Hopefully that is more clear?
Yes, and that is what I meant. You have a set of ideas that you have to incorporate any new concepts into, and you aren't prepared for a paradigm shift where you accept our perspectives at the expense of your current foundation. Even though you want more you are fine with your paradigms as they are, and it seems to me that goes for all of us in this thread.
 
Yes. And no. (I know you hate that! :cool:). Yes in that we each have our own inclinations of the, or at least, an answer and there has been little shift on anyone's part. No, in that I am not fine with my paradigms as they are. Which I have mentioned a number of times.

My paradigm is missing pieces because it feels incomplete to me. And there have been small moments of insight from what everyone has written thus far. The big AHA moment hasn't been forthcoming yet; possibly it never will. The potential promise in everyone's contribution to the dialogue is that each new post may yield that critical little chunk that am missing.
 
Been wondering where this thread was going all the while remembering Kierkegaard - "We are confronted with a difficulty: one cannot seek for what he knows and it seems equally impossible for him to seem for what he does not know. [Because] what a man knows he cannot seek, since he knows it and what he does not know he cannot seek because he does not even know what to seek." I'm just saying:rolleyes:
 
Ah, but looking to others for answers that lie within is a flaw unto itself...
Now that really hits home for me. It wasn't until my dad passed and I did some serious soul searching, that I realized the spiritual answers I'd sought all my life were with me all along.
 
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i never suggested looking to others answers as a source was wise.
Nor is it, but nor is the opposite. And as it's clear the easiest person to delude is oneself ... hence the guru-disciple relationship that underpins all spiritual development.

I said looking at others answers for hints that might help me go further towards my own answers was a legit option.
Seems the wisest, too.
 
Seems the wisest, too.
Legit maybe. I don't know that I would class it as wise though. I'll have to give that some thought.
hence the guru-disciple relationship that underpins all spiritual development.
There's nothing wrong with seeking spiritual counsel, so long as you're not denying the number 4 prior to asking the sum of 2+2.
 
Thinking something is likely doesn't make it true, that's why I ask for other perspectives.
 
Teacher: DA what's the sum of 2+2?
DA: I don't understand the question.
Teacher: Ok then, COT what's the sum of 2+2?
COT: I'd like to consider other perspectives before I answer.
Teacher: Very well, NJ what's the... Class, where's NJ?
Class: He jumped out the window Miss!​
 
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