How Easily We are Fooled.

In an attempt to wrangle this train back on track again.

Namaste Jesus said:
Now if you ask me, saving a life is pretty damn miraculous. Comes down to this though, some of us see God in all things. Some of us do not. Some say it is man. Some say it is God. The ultimate impasse once again.
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I thought this was an interesting point of view and wanted to return to it. Saving a life is an awesome thing. Absolutely. Why would one consider it miraculous though. With advancements in medical care and trauma care, humans have become much more adept at saving lives where those lives would have been lost in decades past. This has all come about by human endeavors.

And it seems where the rub is in how we are defining 'miraculous' differently. I would propose, for the sake of the discussion moving forward, a differentiation between miracles small 'm' versus Miracles capital 'M'. Where the former is defined by extraordinary though mortal actions, and the latter is relegated to supernatural interventions.

Attempting to paraphrase NJ's conclusion from this point of view, I would say that the original story was considered a Miracle, a supernatural event by the presence of an angel. After getting the second half of the story, it becomes a miracle in the sense that the priest just happened to be on the scene when the accident happened.

Would that be considered a fair representation of your point of view NJ?
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Would that be considered a fair representation of your point of view NJ?
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DA, at this point we're just beating a dead horse. We've both made our positions clear enough. As I said, "This is the ultimate impasse." To me God is the miraculous and I see God in all things. Some get that, some don't. That's just the way it is. Yes great medical advances have been made across the board. You see in that the great accomplishments of man. I see the great things man has been able to accomplish under God's good grace and find it quite miraculous. Again, some get that, some don't.
 
I definitely believe in miracles. Why just this evening I dined with my wife, both aunts and sister in law. Miraculously I was able to get at least 2 words in!:D
 
Aussie Thoughts said:
I definitely believe in miracles. Why just this evening I dined with my wife, both aunts and sister in law. Miraculously I was able to get at least 2 words in!:D
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LOL!!! You know, there's some truth in that. Supernatural events don't always manifest themselves as great colossal gestures. A simple act of kindness can have supernatural origins.
 
Only the other hand, it is fallacious to adapt the line to reasoning that because humans are easily fooled this way such that none of their claims can be true. The question is rather how can a truth be identified if so.

If a supernatural truth exists out there, the only way you can reach such a truth is by putting faith in one of the many supernatural claims. Or else, there is simply no way that you can get to a truth of this kind.

So refusing to believe anything simultaneous means you are going to shut down all possible ways leading to a possible truth. So in order to hit a truth, you have to put faith in one way or another. The downside is that your this faith may possibly lead you to something not true though.
 
Courage said:
The downside is that your this faith may possibly lead you to something not true though.
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I would call that one Very Big downside!

I agree that because humans are easily fooled into believing supernatural events have happened, that does not mean that supernatural events can not happen.

There is no way to prove supernatural events by simply deciding to have faith that they happen though. One can decide for oneself that simply believing makes it so - as NJ has stated he does: "To me God is the miraculous and I see God in all things". I have no issue with that thinking with the exception that I see that as a personal opinion. Each person's own opinion can and will vary widely.

2+2=4 is not an opinion. It is a mathematical fact.
 
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Namaste Jesus said:
As is that your personal opinion.
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It is. And it has as much, and as little value as any other person's opinion. That's why opinions are not particularly useful. We each have our own and none of us can prove an imponderable such as miracles or gods with an opinion.

Namaste Jesus said:
It is to those who don't believe in the number 4
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You love to harass me with this one. I know you do! lol. My response though would be that if one does not believe in the number 4, one rejects the science of mathematics. That does not change the accuracy of the science of mathematics!
 
Namaste Jesus said:
LOL!!! You know, there's some truth in that. Supernatural events don't always manifest themselves as great colossal gestures. A simple act of kindness can have supernatural origins.
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Hey speaking of saving lives, remember the bloke in the boozer that night?;)
 
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Aussie Thoughts said:
Hey speaking of saving lives, remember the bloke in the boozer that night?;)
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Good Lord! I haven't thought about that in years. Nothing to do with the thread really, but to clue everyone else in. Aussie's talking about when he was living here. Him and I went to a country bar one night and this fellow started making fun of Aussie's accent. I mean he just kept it up nonstop. Well Aussie didn't say anything, but as we were leaving he sort of pinned the guy up against the bar and told him, "In the interest of saving your life, I'm going to assume that was just your way of being friendly, but the next bloke might not be so understanding" Then Auss slapped $5 on the counter and told the bartender to pour his new mate a drink.

...and now back to our regular scheduled program.
Devils' Advocate said:
My response though would be that if one does not believe in the number 4, one rejects the science of mathematics. That does not change the accuracy of the science of mathematics!
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EXACTLY!!!
 
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Devils' Advocate said:
I agree that because humans are easily fooled into believing supernatural events have happened, that does not mean that supernatural events can not happen.
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I would have thought what was relevant to the discussion is that there is nothing in the account of the crash reported can be considered 'a supernatural event'. The mysterious appearance and disappearance of the priest has been explained, and rather being mysterious, it is the fire chief's lack of data. Actually it is quite mundane. A priest arrives on the scene of a calamity, and responds to his vocation. The police chief let the priest through the cordon, and the priest subsequently gave his name etc. to the police before leaving the scene.

Will started a thread 'There are no miracles, everything's a miracle' in which he said:
I don't believe in miracles ... I believe it is all a miracle...
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Which is, to quote 1066 And All That: 'wrong but romantic', in that it's a rather fuzzy logic interpretation of the term that does not coincide with the rather more concise biblical understanding, but actually reduces the meaning of the word to nothing.
 
Without hope and fear there likely is no faith. Without faith there are no Miracles!

Please! With all respect I say this: To me this was an incidental thread topic that has continued to drift amuck, to say the least. The thread is interesting enough that it has garnered many responses which would indicate that I am wrong!

However, never have I witnessed such unchallenged "proof" of reasoning. Example: 2+2=4 is true only some of the time. There is more disciplines to math than that which is called "pure math" where indeed 2+2=4. In binary terms, for example, 2+2=1010 or expressed as a decimal as 170. Let us face it, without faith very little is "that" simple or "that" pure! If I am wrong, I am certain to be corrected...
 
EdgyDolmen said:
Without hope and fear there likely is no faith. Without faith there are no Miracles!
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For me faith takes away the fear. There is faith in miracles, but miracles exist with or without it. They're just more recognizable with. As for the 2+2 analogy, looks like you too missed NJ's point. Don't feel bad though, he used one similar to help me understand something many years ago and I didn't get it either at first.
 
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