How Easily We are Fooled.

Nasruddin said:
There is an intriguing issue here that isn't being touched, and that is the capricious nature of divine intervention.
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Though it has been touched upon. By me. And Thomas did as well. If divine intervention is available for some and not others, what point is God making to us. It seems to suggest to me divine favoritism.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Since everything worked out, man is quick to dismiss God and take the credit for himself. Had things not worked out, then it's, why did God let this happen?
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While I'm inclined to agree, the trouble is there are those who would say that had the victim of the car crash died, then that was all part of God's plan too, so we end up justifying any outcome with a kind of Divine Catch 22 – whatever happens, it's all part of God's plan, and you end up with everything being Divine Intervention, for good or ill.

We cannot say, for example, that every time someone dies in a tragedy, they died because someone didn't intervene when they should have.

Nor should we assert that man is incapable of performing a morally good act under his own steam, as it were. So while I agree that man is quick to take the credit, we should not take the position that man cannot perform any creditable or virtuous works. The good that he does is God's good, but he is doing it ...
 
Thomas said:
While I'm inclined to agree, the trouble is there are those who would say that had the victim of the car crash died, then that was all part of God's plan too, so we end up justifying any outcome with a kind of Divine Catch 22 – whatever happens, it's all part of God's plan, and you end up with everything being Divine Intervention, for good or ill.
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I'm inclined to agree with you here as well. At least in principle. I don't think human tragedy is necessarily part of God's plan either. As you said previously in this thread, sometimes stuff just happens.
Thomas said:
We cannot say, for example, that every time someone dies in a tragedy, they died because someone didn't intervene when they should have.
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Quite.
Thomas said:
Nor should we assert that man is incapable of performing a morally good act under his own steam, as it were. So while I agree that man is quick to take the credit, we should not take the position that man cannot perform any creditable or virtuous works. The good that he does is God's good, but he is doing it ...
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Here too I can agree in principle. Man is capable of virtuous acts without direct divine intervention surely, but why is that? My position there is, because of the all encompassing miracle of the divine spirit within. Indirectly affecting, or directly depending on your position on the fence, everything else we do. That's not to say however, there are no additional forces at play.

I think people somehow got the idea I believed God was standing at the ready to intervene in every aspect of our lives and no matter what happened, it's what God wanted. No, that's why we have free will. God has already given us the tools we need to succeed and to help our fellow man do likewise. While I do believe God steps in when necessary and may have done so in the events described in the OP, ultimately it is with us to decide right from wrong and when we should and should not act. I also believe however, that more often than not, when the divine spirit calls, many fail to answer. Believers and non-believers alike. How often have we heard stories where someone was robbed or worse with people standing near by? "Oh, I didn't see anything" or "I didn't want to get involved" Selfishness? Fear? Lack of faith? All of the above? Whatever it is, people have learned to turn a blind eye to the spirit within. I've certainly been guilty of it myself at times.
 
Seems to me an ambulance that arrived right after the priest anointed her was called much before that, on its way and working thru traffic to get there...

Where is the miracle?
 
wil said:
Where is the miracle?
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That's the way I see it ...

But maybe it's a denomination thing?

In the Catholic/Orthodox Traditions, we are participatory in our salvation, we assent and we work ... so while metaphysically all good comes from God, where the rubber hits the road, we are the interface. Again, it's not the act, it's the intention, and it's the good and the virtue of the intention that is ours.

In many of the Post-Reformation denominations, we are incapable of effecting anything with regard to our salvation.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
But you're a 'everything is a miracle' kind-of-guy?
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You are correct....maybe I should say where I'd divine intervention?

The miracle is we can drive at 80mph, and have cell phones to call people, and can discuss this in electronic signals around the world....and....and....and...everything but a priest popping up from nowhere and conjuring ambulances.
 
Thomas said:
In many of the Post-Reformation denominations, we are incapable of effecting anything with regard to our salvation.
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homeless, unwashed bangs on church door looking for food... Says to the preacher lady when she opens the door, "sister I am here to be saved". Rev says, " mister you came to the wrong place, here we teach you to save yourself"
 
wil said:
homeless, unwashed bangs on church door looking for food... Says to the preacher lady when she opens the door, "sister I am here to be saved". Rev says, " mister you came to the wrong place, here we teach you to save yourself"
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Hm, just read an article about our church sheltering refugees. Like most of Europe we have also closed our doors and people who have fled war are being rounded up and sent back.
 
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