Can we know for certain anything about God and what he plans for us?

[Namaste Jesus]

So there, one agreement and one disagreement. Balls in your court!

Oddly enough, I don't completely disagree with you here. At least not in principle. I don't care for the idea that creationism is a science either or that if one is true the other must be false. I just don't think that's the right way to look at it from either side. Here's where we may disagree though as I'm more Bible oriented than yourself. I see science as man's explanation of God's creation and the scientific method as man making use of that creation. Although, that's just my opinion and I'm not suggesting it be taught that way in schools.

Scary times for those of us who believe our government should remain completely secular the way the Founding Fathers intended.

Not sure I completely agree here though as far as what the founding fathers intended is concerned. There was a time early on in our nation's history when schools taught directly from the Bible and text books contained many Biblical references. I found a very interesting site on the subject. http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/educationamerica.html

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Well as for the site, I believe the owner's disclaimer kinda says it all as to his ability to be fair minded.

Disclaimer: The contents of this web-site is not intended to accuse individuals. There are many faithful believers in various religious denominations, including Roman Catholicism, who serve God to the best of their ability and are seen by God as His children (hence, "Come out of her, my people," Rev. 18:4). These believers, faithful to their church's teachings, have fallen victim to one or more of Satan's many snares, devices and false doctrines......

Basically saying he isn't accusing all the listed because they are evil, they have merely been duped. Essentially everyone who doesn't agree with his point of view have been tricked by Satan.

Enough about the site. The facts on early schooling in this country he states are not false. They do not tell the whole story though. For one, this country was settled largely by Puritans. They came here for the religious freedom they couldn't get from their home countries. Setting up shop here they then proceeded to try and install a biblical doctrine on society. There have been many such attempts to use this countries freedom of religion to try and take that freedom from everyone else.

But in many ways there is an even simpler reason for the many biblical citations in school books. There weren't a lot of books in this country in the early 1800s. There was no access to the great Greek traditions, for example. But christian theology and the bible was everywhere. School texts had to get their material from somewhere and the most abundant, and often the only book available was the bible.

Final thought. It is popular to espouse the idea that America was settled by christians. That just is not true. Yes, the people in power, the land owners, the people in government and other power positions they were mostly christian. There were also hundreds of thousands of the non-people, like all the Chinese imported into this country to build the railroads. They were not christian. There were all the black slaves made to work the fields and all. Their religions was not christianity back then.

No. There were an enormous number of 'Americans' who were not christian. They just were not considered people at the time. But they were people, and they were here during the founding formation of this country. In many areas the non-christians outnumbered the christians by huge numbers!

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Once again, nothing really to disagree with here. All true. At our countries inception, text other than the Bible were indeed limited. That's something I'm quite sure the founding fathers were fully aware of though and that the Bible would be used as a teaching tool. And yes, there were countless numbers of individuals whom had yet to hear the inspired word of God from a Christian standpoint. Some already here at the founding, others to come later. My only point is, the idea of God has been there from the beginning. Right up to our declaration of independence, which includes the words, endowed by their Creator.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Right up to our declaration of independence, which includes the words, endowed by their Creator.

Which one has to look at very closely. The FF could just as easily have said 'endowed by God'. But they chose not to use that word, in favor of a much more generic term. That's significant in attempting to gauge their intentions. Remember, several of the FF were not christians.

There are other places where the term 'God' came into direct use. On our money it is 'In God we Trust', etc. We have not been very consistent on this. The original settlers here came from European countries where christianity had a much more powerful sway over both government and life in general. So, yes, a deity came here and was here from the beginning.

Modern christians who are attempting to force christian values on a more and more diverse religious nation today are not being honest about the intent of the FF. They are trying very hard to distort what was originally intended.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Which one has to look at very closely. The FF could just as easily have said 'endowed by God'.

Potato, potato' to me, but I get your drift.

Modern christians who are attempting to force christian values on a more and more diverse religious nation today are not being honest about the intent of the FF. They are trying very hard to distort what was originally intended.

I cautiously agree here too. Damn, is all this agreeing starting to make you itch as well?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Oh thank goodness. Thought I was breaking out in hives or something!

 

[wil]

Perhaps, but we're still talking about the same raw materials and that was my point. To me, it's no more implausible to say God created life from these materials than it is to say life spontaneously erupted from them in a warm pond. Probably not something we're ever going to agree on though, so I'll just leave it at that.

nope, if you think making man out of mud, and woman out of his rib as whole beings is akin to the first step of the primordial ooze over millions of chances creating the first single celled organism...you are correct....we have a language barrier.

What is radical? What is abusive?

Training kids to be suicide bombers, denying science education, not educating females past 8th grade, forcing child marriages, genital mutilation.... I could go on...but I am not talking about myths of Santa Claus and tooth faeries....

 

[wil]

I find it both sad and hilarious that my attempt at being quite clear was taken as so wide reaching and generalizing that folks thought I was accusing them....

Me thinks thou dost protesteth too much...

But hell, self examination is good.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Wil, I think your picking fights where there are none. I mean, don't be such a Dan, Daning all over the Dan place, Dan.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

nope, if you think making man out of mud, and woman out of his rib as whole beings is akin to the first step of the primordial ooze over millions of chances creating the first single celled organism...you are correct....we have a language barrier.

What is radical? What is abusive?

Training kids to be suicide bombers, denying science education, not educating females past 8th grade, forcing child marriages, genital mutilation.... I could go on...but I am not talking about myths of Santa Claus and tooth faeries....

Really wil? you are going to take all the (false) stereotypes of Islam and use them as examples of how religion affects people, children in particular? Well lets add a few of those "terrible" tenants and their effect on society. In most Muslim Countries, crimes such as drug use, theft, and Murder are lower than most if not all "Christian" based countries. Atheism has yet to even dominate any country except Nazi Germany, USSR, and North Korea and if you haven't been paying attention, none of those have ended well, without mentioning the atrocities committed by each.
How about the FACT that unmarried women with Children in Islamic countries are near zero. How about the FACT that poverty rates over whole countries is low/non-existent in wealthy Islamic Countries, and poverty usually only shows up in countries where the majority of the population and rulers are poor. How about the FACT that before "Socialism" was "invented" it was used for centuries in Islamic countries.

The ISsue isn't the religious teachings, it's people like you who don't Follow the teachings. For someone so adamant about science being taught, you forget that part of science is theory. The Theory of spontaneous life is not a certainty, nor is it even a lot of logical sense. Blind evolution into all the various species in the world now, much less of all time leaves many gaps as any real scientist will say. Science cannot operate conclusively that a creator is not the cause or the shaper. Just as it cannot confirm it. It is an equal theory to any other statistically. As long as schools maintain both MAJOR THEORIES why would it be bothersome for you if they taught it in schools? Creationism is no less an important THEORY than Evolution/Spontaneous Life.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Really wil? you are going to take all the (false) stereotypes of Islam and use them as examples of how religion affects people, children in particular?

This is his view of Christianty as well and wil has never expressed any ill will against Islam on this board that I have seen. I think you are doing what I just accused will of doing.

Atheism has yet to even dominate any country except Nazi Germany, USSR, and North Korea

Don't know how you went about to determent this, though?

 

[RJM]

Really wil? you are going to take all the (false) stereotypes of Islam and use them as examples of how religion affects people, children in particular? Well lets add a few of those "terrible" tenants and their effect on society. In most Muslim Countries, crimes such as drug use, theft, and Murder are lower than most if not all "Christian" based countries. Atheism has yet to even dominate any country except Nazi Germany, USSR, and North Korea and if you haven't been paying attention, none of those have ended well, without mentioning the atrocities committed by each.
How about the FACT that unmarried women with Children in Islamic countries are near zero. How about the FACT that poverty rates over whole countries is low/non-existent in wealthy Islamic Countries, and poverty usually only shows up in countries where the majority of the population and rulers are poor. How about the FACT that before "Socialism" was "invented" it was used for centuries in Islamic countries.

The ISsue isn't the religious teachings, it's people like you who don't Follow the teachings. For someone so adamant about science being taught, you forget that part of science is theory. The Theory of spontaneous life is not a certainty, nor is it even a lot of logical sense. Blind evolution into all the various species in the world now, much less of all time leaves many gaps as any real scientist will say. Science cannot operate conclusively that a creator is not the cause or the shaper. Just as it cannot confirm it. It is an equal theory to any other statistically. As long as schools maintain both MAJOR THEORIES why would it be bothersome for you if they taught it in schools? Creationism is no less an important THEORY than Evolution/Spontaneous Life.

I agree with your take on spontaneous origination of life.

I disagree about Islam being the primary source of prosperity in Islamic states. I think oil has something to do with it.

I'm at odds with the Islamic attitude that non-Muslims are 'non-people' fair game, to be stolen from and used any which way, including slavery and rape.

Finally, regarding low crime and few unmarried mothers etc, under Sharia law -- it was said of Gengis Khan that a naked woman could walk a thousand miles with a bag of gold around her neck, and no-one would dare touch her.

But did this really justify the brutality?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Uh, most Germans during the reign of the Third Reich were either Roman Catholic or Evangelical Protestant Christians. Just sayin.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Uh, most Germans during the reign of the Third Reich were either Roman Catholic or Evangelical Protestant Christians. Just sayin.

True, but given the treatment of Jews at the time, I'd say Christian in name only. At least as far as the leaders of he Third Reich are concerned. I mean, they even used a slightly altered version of the Hindu symbol for good fortune, peace and prosperity as their official logo. Me thinks, not all is as it seems.

 

[Lux]

If untampered with, what happens to our bodies when we die? Through a gradual putrefaction process our once living tissue decays and breaks down to it's base elements. Essentially, dirt. Is it really that far a stretch to believe God could reverse the process?

Just to make one thing clear ... I do believe “there was God behind when inanimate materials turned animate living things, first, to single-celled organisms”... I don’t refer to this belief as Creationism. What I mean by Creationism is the belief we didn’t go thru the evolution process explained by Darwinism.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

What I mean by Creationism is the belief we didn’t go thru the evolution process explained by Darwinism.

Fair enough. As for me, I believe that, as the Bible says, we are created in God's own image. That is, how we are now is how we were intended to be. Now whether our existence in the flesh was accomplished in tiny incremental steps or occurred in one fell swoop, I could not say. In my mind, neither scripture nor science is 100% clear on that. So for me, if I believe one way and my neighbor another, it matters not. That needn't prevent us from being good neighbors or being respectful of one another.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

I disagree about Islam being the primary source of prosperity in Islamic states. I think oil has something to do with it.

I think you misunderstood, probably due to my poor wording. The prosperity comes from many sources, not Religion. The Religion is what normally spreads that wealth so that the lowest groups tend to be much higher than those of lower class in non-Islamic ones. This is purely based on individual study so I'm not making any blanket claims. The model is essentially Socialism, except Socialism wouldn't come around for a few hundred years after Islam came.

I'm at odds with the Islamic attitude that non-Muslims are 'non-people' fair game, to be stolen from and used any which way, including slavery and rape.

To be fair, if this were an islamic view, I'd be at odds too, however this is something that is entirely non-islamic. The only "Muslims" doing this are those at odds with Shariah, which we normally refer to as terrorists.

Finally, regarding low crime and few unmarried mothers etc, under Sharia law -- it was said of Gengis Khan that a naked woman could walk a thousand miles with a bag of gold around her neck, and no-one would dare touch her.

To be fair she would probably be clothed, fed, and given supplies for the rest of her journey also by people she met along the way.

But did this really justify the brutality?

Let's first remember there was a pre-Islam Ghengis Khan and a Post Islam. Most of the conquest and "Brutality" came before his conversion. as a matter in fact I've read that the point at which he Converted is part of the reason his push didn't stretch further.

This is his view of Christianty as well and wil has never expressed any ill will against Islam on this board that I have seen. I think you are doing what I just accused will of doing.

Might want to go back a bit, he's expressed several things of ill will. The ones chosen are fairly obvious the route he was taken, they are the most common talking points of wikiislam and the like.

Uh, most Germans during the reign of the Third Reich were either Roman Catholic or Evangelical Protestant Christians. Just sayin.

Most of the people were, Most of the administration however pushed for atheistic views namely to stave off people from morally objecting to the things being done. Same of your assessment could be used for USSR, but the government clearly had a vision to eliminate religion (it got into the way of production)

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Might want to go back a bit, he's expressed several things of ill will. The ones chosen are fairly obvious the route he was taken, they are the most common talking points of wikiislam and the like.

And this is where you back up your very serious accusations with some examples.
How far back do you mean because I just went through ten pages of this thread and have been reading his many, many, many posts (damn you're prolific, wil) since I got here several years ago.