Is This Idolatry

[wil]

I hold accountable Protestantism for its poverty of symbol.

lol... We rejoice in it.

Actually traveling around looking at Unity Churches you aren't often going to see crosses...mostly doves, wings. Won't see a lot of stained glass, and if you are to see a Unity church with a plethora of symbols...they will be representing and honoring other faiths..

 

[Thomas]

lol... We rejoice in it.

Oooh, I wouldn't brag about it ...

 

[wil]

Oooh, I wouldn't brag about it ...

Why not? I've said it before...Any G!d demanding worship aint for me. Any G!d so vain as to need everyone to wear an emblem around their neck to prove allegiance ain't for me. I am not concerned with my eternity.

 

[RJM]

... Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "secular." To me it means "non-religious," "anti-religious," "atheist." I am hoping that is not what you mean, and it is entirely possible I am attaching unintended meaning...but that is how I've long viewed the term ...

No it's not what I mean. I use the word in the sense of subject to democratic laws and not answerable to any religious body.

 

[wil]

Golly day...words...I never knew

sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/
adjective
adjective: secular

1. 1.
   denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
   "secular buildings"
   synonyms: nonreligious, areligious, lay, temporal, worldly, earthly, profane;
   formallaic
   "secular music"
   antonyms: holy, religious
2. 2.
   CHRISTIAN CHURCH
   (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.

So the general view of secular is non religious...the christian definition is not belonging to any specific denomination....WOW... Non denomination preachers are secular...this is about as confusing as IRS definitions!!

 

[RJM]

Why not? I've said it before...Any G!d demanding worship aint for me. Any G!d so vain as to need everyone to wear an emblem around their neck to prove allegiance ain't for me. I am not concerned with my eternity.

But maybe people worship God because they want to? Maybe God is love?

 

[wil]

But maybe people worship God because they want to? Maybe God is love?

Doh...I've said that all along. I don't demand worship from my creations (my children) and I think the American tradition of Fathers day is a joke. Nobody has a right to demand respect...it has to be earned.

When I read the bible and can't replace the reference to G!d with the word "love" ... I have to look metaphorically, allegorically, or metaphysically at the passage... As love don't smite anyone.

 

[RJM]

Doh...I've said that all along. I don't demand worship from my creations (my children) and I think the American tradition of Fathers day is a joke. Nobody has a right to demand respect...it has to be earned.

When I read the bible and can't replace the reference to G!d with the word "love" ... I have to look metaphorically, allegorically, or metaphysically at the passage... As love don't smite anyone.

So, when sometimes after work I decide to walk over to the Abbey for evening vespers, and I listen for half-an-hour to the beautiful Gregorian psalms chanted in Latin by the monks in the ancient peace of the vaulted church building (with a translation provided) -- I know no-one's making me do it. And I leave refreshed, glad I did -- back into the everyday. Every time ...

 

[RJM]

They don't care if I'm there or not. No-one's trying to convince me of anything. If I'm not there those old monks will still be chanting vespers same time every day. The service is there if I want to go over, and I can take from it whatever I want ...

 

[wil]

Exactly how it should be... No requirements to be at the altar....ever... Always choice.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Nobody has a right to demand respect...it has to be earned.

You salute the rank, not the man.

And

When a policeman gives and order ---and later when the policeman finds himself wrestling to the ground to get the unruly civilian to acquiesce to being arrested ---some one earns his stripes and another learns a hard-rock lesson of adult life: Lawyers are very very expensive.

 

[RJM]

And there's an element of fear attached to respect? A cricket team has to have a bit of fear for their captain: they're unwilling to get a talking-to.

If an army sergeant shouts 'duck' the men in the platoon have to duck, without arguing back. For fear of extra drill or latrine duty, true. But mostly for fear of perhaps being nailed by a sniper. Not because the sergeant likes making them duck to satisfy his own ego.

'Learning to fear God is the beginning of all wisdom.'

And perhaps that's not fear of God's direct punishment but fear of being without God or the angels' guidance and help.

Through a glass darkly. The Spiritual reality surrounds and permeates the natural material world. Nature exists within and by virtue of Spirit? Plato's cave. Direct deductions about the Spiritual from the natural aren't really possible?

(Post has been edited)

 

[Thomas]

Why not? I've said it before...Any G!d demanding worship aint for me.

I think you might misunderstand the whole idea of God — certainly the Christian one — you're anthropomorphising.

Any G!d so vain as to need everyone to wear an emblem around their neck to prove allegiance ain't for me.

It's not for God's sake ...

I don't demand worship from my creations ...

Nor does God, if ypou think about it.

Nobody has a right to demand respect...it has to be earned.

That's a very macho way of looking at things.

... I have to look metaphorically, allegorically, or metaphysically at the passage... As love don't smite anyone.

But everything you says says you read it literally. All your beefs, all your complaints, all your objections and criticisms are based on a literal reading/interpretation of the text.

 

[Thomas]

Nobody has a right to demand respect...it has to be earned.

Really. How proud of you. How many measure up to it?

I try and respect all, under the Golden Rule, without requirement.

For me respecting others is a given. It may well be lost, equally it may be enhanced, but I don't put up barriers, set tests, demand requirements fulfilled, etc., before someone earns my respect. They only come after it's lost, for my preservation and theirs.

(As for God, it's no contest, really. Who is God? Who am I? Reason comes into play here, surely – and please, no brickbat responses based on literal readings of ancient texts)

THE BIG ISSUE

Is people like to put the dialogue in terms of what God requires of me. As if I'm OK, but God's got a problem.

It's all one way traffic, as if God is indeed 'a jealous God' (as the Bible states, 15 times).

I'm a jealous son, husband, brother and father ... I love and care for, want to preserve and protect those close to me. I want the best for them, I want them to be happy, and I'm upset when they're not.

I speak to strangers in the street. I've even been known to wake drunks on the underground to ask if they've reached or missed their station (I got kissed once, too, which was not quite what I had bargained for.)

The point is, religion is all about us being with God. It's us who separated ourselves in the first place, it's us who put all the impediments in the way of Union. Or Enlightenment, or whatever ... every tradition says the same, what you desire is closer to you than your own shadow ...

And it's us who invent all manner of reasons for finding fault with God, when really we're saying 'it's not my fault' when actually, it is.

The Bible nailed that transcendent truth millennia ago, and it's as true now as it was then.

 

[Thomas]

Of course, the 'respect me before I respect you' is a form of idolatry ...

 

[wil]

Lol, I happily disagree with every response I just read...

 

[juantoo3]

Not sure how we went from idolatry to respect...and the real kicker for me is how respect *is* idolatry??? Lucy...'splain yourself. (said in my best Ricky Ricardo accent)

The whole "turn the other cheek" thing (which in my opinion is commonly taught incorrectly) suggests I have the right, duty and obligation to meet "disrespect" with whatever is required to defend myself. The nonsense about taking all the foolish punishment some disrespectful person heaps on you, gladly, like a doormat...is a clear misreading of the intent, particularly when taken side by side with "do unto others." Rest assured, if you "do unto me," you're gonna get it right back - because that is how you've shown me you wish to be done unto. To get respect, you must give respect. Might does not make right. (Neither does volume.) Because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it is correct, wise, healthy or otherwise appropriate. Popular opinion is still *just* opinion, and getting in my face about anything is a sure way to get my hackles up. Live and let live means let me live too, disrespect that and watch the sparks fly. I have to tolerate, I do not have to accept - there is a difference.

NONE of this has anything to do with idolatry.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

View attachment 1839

No the Crucifix is not meant to be worshiped as God or to take the place thereof. So displaying one in and of itself does not amount to idolatry, but merely, as others have mentioned, a reminder of God's sacrifice. It can however, as can nearly anything else, become paramount to idolatry when it begins to displace God in our minds and becomes our prime focal point.

That said, I never much cared for the graphic nature of the crucifix. For me, a simple cross suffices as a gentle reminder. I wear one around my neck at all times. In fact, the only times I've ever removed it is for medical procedures like xrays, MRis and CT-Scans.

I don't pray to it, with it or even through it. I wear it mainly because, it is a constant reminder of the awesome price our Lord paid for me and everyone else and as a testament of faith, much the same way one wears a wedding band. I am very protective of both. Partly because, they were both gifts from my wife and partly because, they are quite literally worth their weight in Gold. A tidy sum on todays market.

We also have Crosses displayed in our private Mandir and above the main entrances of our home. Again, not for worship, but rather a reminder and symbol of faith.

 

[Thomas]

... and the real kicker for me is how respect *is* idolatry???

My slant on that is, if someone — whom I've never met and do not know — has to earn my respect from the get-go, what does that say of my view of them, and my view of myself?

The whole "turn the other cheek" thing (which in my opinion is commonly taught incorrectly) suggests I have the right, duty and obligation to meet "disrespect" with whatever is required to defend myself.

Does it? Not to me ... ?

The nonsense about taking all the foolish punishment some disrespectful person heaps on you, gladly, like a doormat... is a clear misreading of the intent, particularly when taken side by side with "do unto others."

Clearly.

Rest assured, if you "do unto me," you're gonna get it right back - because that is how you've shown me you wish to be done unto.

Ah, we differ there. C'mon. Will you sink below your own values because someone else does? I think not. I can agree with the emotive element of the sentiment, but then that is balanced by reason.

To get respect, you must give respect.

Yep. Golden Rule.

Might does not make right. (Neither does volume.)

Louder! ... oh, hang on ...

Because everyone is doing it doesn't mean it is correct, wise, healthy or otherwise appropriate.

Agreed.

Popular opinion is still *just* opinion, and getting in my face about anything is a sure way to get my hackles up.

Agreed.

Live and let live means let me live too, disrespect that and watch the sparks fly. I have to tolerate, I do not have to accept - there is a difference.

Agreed!

I have a particular aversion (nothing passionate, mind) to the idea of 'gentle Jesus, meek and mild'. I think that's a total misreading of the image. His gentleness is born of inner strength, and ask anyone He contended with (especially Pharisees) about 'meek and 'mild', and they'll think you're talking about a different bloke altogether.

Christ never took shit from anyone. He did take on humanity's whole shitty situation, and beat it by transforming it.

NONE of this has anything to do with idolatry.

My suggestion was an inflated idea of self worth is a form of self-idolisation... goes right back to the Garden, when the serpent homed in on the weakness of human nature.

 

[Thomas]

Lol, I happily disagree with every response I just read...

Well if the Golden Rule's out, then that's that ...