Vatican III

Thomas

So it goes ...
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You heard it here, folks!

Keep it under your hats, but I've been asked to draw up the topics for discussion for the next Ecumenical Council of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

For me, Gender and Sexuality is top of the list.

Suggestions welcome!

(Written to the distinct auditory phenomena of an angel whispering 'fools rush in ... :rolleyes: )
 
You heard it here, folks!

Keep it under your hats, but I've been asked to draw up the topics for discussion for the next Ecumenical Council of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

For me, Gender and Sexuality is top of the list.

Suggestions welcome!

(Written to the distinct auditory phenomena of an angel whispering 'fools rush in ... :rolleyes: )
On it, but very cautious.
 
Most tribes bind intercourse within marriage, which is constituted by the act of intercourse. It is ancient and universal, often with the death penalty for adultery. There are all sorts of practical and cultural reasons. So ...

However, apart from practicalities, I can't think God is much concerned about people's personal sex lives. Bigger things of concern.

People are weak, and human, and God knows this. But ...
 
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Written to the distinct auditory phenomena of an angel whispering 'fools rush in ...

LOL... That got a belly laugh.

Daunting sand mine I would just as soon keep my shovel out of. I've dug enough holes for the week.

Most tribes bind intercourse within marriage, which is constituted by the act of intercourse. It is ancient and universal, often with the death penalty for adultery. There are all sorts of practical and cultural reasons. So ...
I agree in principle, but I don't think it is quite that cut and dried. I've often thought about chasing the marriage concept out, to discover where the "wife" became chatttel, that it would make a good thread for study...just never got around to it. As much as it rankles me, many marriages have nothing to do with love or procreation, particularly at the upper end of the power curve (you know, all those folks telling us what we have to do, and strange how those rules don't really seem to apply to them). And in many cultures marriage has a bit different format or flavor...Native Americans for instance, while there is a ceremony recognizing a union within the tribe, that union can without fanfare or recourse be dissolved simply because one or the other party wishes to walk away...divorce about as simple as it gets. I'm not very familiar with other tribal situations, but I can't help but think that cultures such as the San Bushmen, the Inuit Eskimos or any of the South American Natives deep in the Amazon "process" marriage a good bit differently than we typically imagine.
 
Yes, I've seen many a marriage that was basically a business transaction... And then some that have turned into same over time

I've also met many a poly relationship... When that one comes up in the us courts there should be zero biblical argument (unlike the one trotted out against gay marriage)

I'm starting to think we need to separate church and state on the marriage thing...there is the civil contract and then the religious union...each to its own.

Also starting to think prenups should be required and 5 year renups a thing...
 
I think before marriage we'd have to look at gender?
But leaving that aside ...

Most tribes bind intercourse within marriage, which is constituted by the act of intercourse. It is ancient and universal, often with the death penalty for adultery. There are all sorts of practical and cultural reasons ...
I think social pragmatism played into this before it was defined in a religious context.

I would return to the old custom of marriage in the Church porch, not at the altar. The marriage would be blessed, but the couple would not take binding vows before God. This would be the equivalent of a social partnership. Couples can have their dresses, speeches, cake, etc., all the trappings ... in short the kind of celebration that most people want, even though they don't regularly attend a church or necessarily believe in God.
Divorce would be possible as no sacramental vows are taken.

A Sacramental Marriage would be a solemn and much more serious thing. A binding contract that is, in the eyes of the Church, insoluble. So not to be undertaken lightly. Only available to practicing Catholics. Only available after 'N' years married. A private affair, with no party planners and all the expense that goes with marriage.

I can't think God is much concerned about people's personal sex lives.
I tend to agree. I think people have an unhealthy interest in other people's lives.

I've often thought about chasing the marriage concept out, to discover where the "wife" became chatttel, that it would make a good thread for study...just never got around to it.
Prehistory, perhaps?

As much as it rankles me, many marriages have nothing to do with love or procreation, particularly at the upper end of the power curve.
It's about name, dowry, inheritance. Marriage was a marriage between powers, to preserve those powers and keep them in the right circles, thus the rich and powerful tend to marry their own kind.

Even lower down the food-chain, marriage was about land, flocks, herds ... I think 'falling in love' was very low, if not bottom on the list of priorities.

I think our modern marriage is a minority thing, historically. Personally, I wouldn't buy a toaster with a failure rate like that of our western notion of a love marriage.

Arranged marriages today are anathema to the western mind, but then a huge percentage of modern marriages end in failure, so who's right to critise?

And I saw stats somewhere that over half the divorced come to regret the decision within a few years. The obvious cases aside (cruelty, infidelity etc.), many think they should have worked harder at making the marriage work. We live in a culture that is pre-disposed against 'hardship'. "When the going get's tough, bale out ..." kinda thinking.

I've heard an Oxford-trained lawyer who's a Queen's Council, a Moslem woman who married according to her parent's wishes, argue that the western 'love' marriage is a broken model.

(Marrying minors to elders, of course, is a no-no)

while there is a ceremony recognizing a union within the tribe, that union can without fanfare or recourse be dissolved simply because one or the other party wishes to walk away...
I think property ownership complicates matters. Unlike ancient cultures, we live in an increasingly complex social situation?
 
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I think property ownership complicates matters. Unlike ancient cultures, we live in an increasingly complex social situation?
You may be onto something here. Property ownership, at least in the sense of owning land, is/was a foreign concept to the Indians. I've read that Native Americans often couldn't comprehend how man can own the earth, when man belongs to the earth (the earth owns all men - and women). Bit of a flip in the concept. I can only guess that has something to do with being agrarian on our part, where the Native Americans tended to be more nomadic hunters for the most part. We would want to stick around where our crops are planted, whereas a nomad would be ready to move when the shaman says it's time to go.

How that applies to marriage I'm not sure, but I think there may be something there.
 
Only available to practicing Catholics. Only available after 'N' years married.
Agree with the no church marriage, no swearing before god as the norm....disagree with only catholics...any church could do this for their members...

How thou do you get around the living in sin aspect? Or is that non biblical any who?
 
disagree with only catholics...any church could do this for their members...
Oh, sure. This is Vatican III though, rules for the RCC, no-one else.

How thou do you get around the living in sin aspect? Or is that non biblical any who?
BIG POINT.

D'you know, I not sure there is any Biblical prohibition against cohabitation?

Adultery is the big deal, because it leads to trouble in the community. Even non-Biblical societies thought the same way. It's adultery if one or both are married to someone else, it's devaluing the father's goods if the daughter is an unmarried/unpromised virgin.

There was Sodom and Gomorrah, but I think there were general social prohibitions against hedonistic excess in non-Biblcial cultures, too. If not actually a no-no, it was 'contained'. Often the pagan 'Mysteries' contained an overt erotic element. Bananabrain explained it once. You turn up as a stranger in a strange town, and before the sun's even set the locals are trying to entice you, your wife and your family into every kind of debauchery.

It's a bit like moving somewhere, and before the van's unloaded you're being sized up by the local swingers' club.

This might just be my sour grapes. We didn't find out til much later (and after parties involved had moved away) that there was a swinger set going among some of the parents at our kids' school, but we never got invited! :mad: I wasn't even practicing Catholic then, either!

Vatican III shifted the conservative position in that:
Cohabitation is not ideal but it's not a sin;
Divorce is not ideal but it's not a sin and it does signal the cessation of the contract.

As the union was not contracted 'in the sight of God', in that no binding oath was exchanged before the altar, it ceases to be a grave offence.

Cohabitation is 'frowned upon' because basically a green light would mean anyone's free to cohabit and it's cool and you'd end up with a lot of irresponsible sexual activity apparently endorsed by Vatican III, and that's not OK.

If I could bring about a societal change nothing to do with religion, it would be the throttling back on sex. The infatuation with sex, with sexual identity, sexual activity, etc., etc. is way over the top... you might argue me wrong, but in the UK "Love Island" has just started and its got viewing figures unheard of since the days when there were just two channels. Beautiful people are put on an island to pair off and shag, and then get thrown off one by one (My own guilt pleasure is "First Dates")

So this is a move to open up moral decision making to the laity. So something like, "In principle we are against ... but it's your decision and your choice."
 
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Well, perhaps if what marriage is in the eyes of the Church can be defined, it will help other gender issues find their place?

Altho the Church cannot sanction divorce, priests may look for loopholes enabling annulment of the marriage -- that one or both did not fully understand the implications of the vows they were taking, etc?

Really marriage is traditionally accomplished by the act of penetration, as are adultery and rape. That's the simple social basics. Definitely pregnancy meant marriage was required: the cartoon father prodding the boyfriend to the altar, or registry, with the business end of a shotgun, beside his heavily pregnant daughter.

So the marriage ceremony was supposed to occur before penetration: the lady was supposed to be a virgin. And the vows were for richer or for poorer, till death do us part.

Tribal people may not even have had a ceremony. Once a boy and a girl did the physical act, the tribe treated them as married. The man was required to provide for his wife and children, until the children could care for themselves.

There were all sorts of social and practical reasons for the marriage bond and fidelity. Perhaps a man could marry more than one wife, if he could afford them.

There were probably all sorts of shenanigans going on between men and women, and men and men, on the quiet, that perhaps were publicly known about and quietly accepted as long as it didn't start making trouble, as Thomas said.

But the basic law was there.


Modern life, and the length of it, has put strain on the simplest model of marriage. But should the Church change because of it?

That's the whole issue, really?

EDIT: I'm not responding dialogue individual points because on a phone highlighting out and cutting and pasting paragraphs is really too much to do, lol ...
 
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Celibacy of the priesthood is based on the idea that a man with a wife and eleven children will, most naturally, have most of his energy in that direction, and put them before his sacred calling, etc.

In real life it's leading in many male 'religious' -- as the clergy are called -- to repressed sexuality wildly breaking free, often in the direction of nice looking boys. Its a very sad situation, embarrassing to all Catholics.

I don't know if @Thomas is serious or joking about being chosen to represent ideas for debate to the next Ecumenical Council, but child abuse of boys by Catholic clergy would have to be very high on the agenda; imo. Would allowing married priests simply solve it?

EDITED ...
 
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I went to Jesuit boarding schools in Africa from age 7yrs to 16yrs. First nuns, then priests. It was not a snowflake existence and there's a lot to say about it: but sexual molestation by Jesuits never came close to me, or to anyone I knew there.
 
It is my understanding that a married minister can convert to Catholicism and become a married priest...that to me defeats the stated logic.
 
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This might just be my sour grapes. We didn't find out til much later (and after parties involved had moved away) that there was a swinger set going among some of the parents at our kids' school, but we never got invited! :mad: I wasn't even practicing Catholic then, either!
I love this so much
 
Thomas said:
If I could bring about a societal change nothing to do with religion, it would be the throttling back on sex. The infatuation with sex, with sexual identity, sexual activity, etc., etc. is way over the top... you might argue me wrong, but in the UK "Love Island" has just started and its got viewing figures unheard of since the days when there were just two channels. Beautiful people are put on an island to pair off and shag, and then get thrown off one by one (My own guilt pleasure is "First Dates")
Agreed...but how? Sex is a natural, and important, part of life. I do agree there is an inordinate amount of focus in the media. But then the media isn't worried about truth, or facts, or promoting spiritual or religious endeavors - while hiding behind freedom of speech. I think equally in dire need of throttling back, is violence. The infatuation with violence can become almost as self-perpetuating as sex, and media continue to create new venues to feed that addiction - with the result in *some people* becoming callous to the pain and suffering and death of others...it's just another video game in their mind, with no remorse or shame or prior consideration of consequences.
 
Would allowing married priests simply solve it?
I think the underlying issues are far more complex and widespread than just pedophilia. But yes, I have never understood the reasoning behind a mandate for celibacy. It should be the person's choice...if they wish to be celibate and pursue the clergy, that's fine. If they wish to be married and pursue the clergy, that too should be fine in my view, so long as the marriage doesn't interfere with the duties and expectations of the flock.
 
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Well, perhaps if what marriage is in the eyes of the Church can be defined, it will help other gender issues find their place?
I'd put gender first — establish man and woman as equals, to start with, and then gender determination as not (hetero) male as one thing, (hetero) female as another, and everything else as wrong.

Altho the Church cannot sanction divorce, priests may look for loopholes enabling annulment of the marriage -- that one or both did not fully understand the implications of the vows they were taking, etc?
Cardinal Ratzinger called the New York diocese into account for an annulment rate ten times the national average. In the UK its a tribunal of three bishops to hear the petition, takes about two years.

Really marriage is traditionally accomplished by the act of penetration, as are adultery and rape.
Yes. Love has precious little to do with it in the eyes of the Law, Canon or Secular.

(D'you know according to Canon Law, if one of the two betrothed is incapable of performing normal sexual relations then the marriage is illicit? That if one of the two is infertile then the marriage is illicit? You'd think the only thing Canon Law worried about was producing more babies ... )

Modern life, and the length of it, has put strain on the simplest model of marriage. But should the Church change because of it?
The answer is no. The Church should not change to adopt the manners and morals of society wholesale, just because a section of society happen to think they're right. In many areas they are right. In others, they are wrong, but those issues tend to get kicked into the long grass.
 
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