Faith and Belief

[muhammad_isa]

..From my Pure Land perspective ( "perspective" not really the right word ) everything flows from Grace. In which I live and move and have my being. All else is made to become so of itself, beyond my calculations. Really I wish to have no consciousness of "goodness".

Isn't this an artificial separation of 2 concepts?

Physical and mental health can be separated for practical reasons, but in reality the 2 are intertwined.
In a similar manner, the argument about whether it is grace or deeds that lead to salvation is not real. Can you have one without the other??
Surely, they are intertwined!

 

[CobblersApprentice]

Isn't this an artificial separation of 2 concepts?

I must be poor at expressing myself. The faith v works (St Paul v St James) was always a pseudo conflict for me, and even more so from the non-dual ground of the Pure Land.

"How joyous I am, my heart and mind being rooted in the Buddhaground of the universal Vow, and my thoughts and feelings flowing within the dharma-ocean, which is beyond comprehension!"

(Shinran)

 

[muhammad_isa]

..The faith v works (St Paul v St James) was always a pseudo conflict for me, and even more so from the non-dual ground of the Pure Land

The Creator of the universe knows best who can attain purity and wisdom..

"How joyous I am, my heart and mind being rooted in the Buddhaground of the universal Vow, and my thoughts and feelings flowing within the dharma-ocean, which is beyond comprehension!"

(Shinran)

Naturally, it is not possible to comprehend all. However, as in science, it is of great benefit to try

 

[CobblersApprentice]

The Creator of the universe knows best who can attain purity and wisdom..



Naturally, it is not possible to comprehend all. However, as in science, it is of great benefit to try

Possibly we are a little at cross purposes. From my non-theistic perspective, dwelling in the dharma-ocean does not preclude scientific endeavour.

I'm not quite sure exactly who knows best.

 

[wil]

having this awful sense that they are just waiting to pounce.

And pounce again.

 

[RJM]

There are yogis who meditate alone on mountain tops to reach nirvana? No talk of good works? God is the first and only work, really? They work to free sentient beings by working through the universal God mind, not by active charity?

 

[CobblersApprentice]

There are yogis who meditate alone on mountain tops to reach nirvana? No talk of good works? God is the first and only work, really? They work to free sentient beings by working through the universal God mind, not by active charity?

Yes, "beyond our calculations". Instinctively I even have my doubts about the monastic life, and when it gets to Bodhidharma staring at a wall for nine years.........Yet, in my life, as experienced, take away Thomas Merton and Nyanaponika Thera, both monastics, and I wonder where I would be. I also have great reason to add that often I think we are "saved" (aka......fill in yourself) in spite of our beliefs rather than because of them.

 

[wil]

I believe the collective mind is a thing. You know, your time in prayer combined with the plosive energy of good works and the monk on the cliff focusing on the good are all moving us in the right direction or at least keeping us from accelerating down the wrong path.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm not quite sure exactly who knows best.

Call Him God, universal consciousness, the Creator .. what you will..
NB God is neither male or female, but in 'Shakespeare's English' denotes respect

I believe the collective mind is a thing.

Yes, indeed .. What is God exactly? Is it even possible to define?
"God is closer to us than our jugular vein" - Quran

 

[RJM]

Instinctively I even have my doubts about the monastic life

You will rarely be more than a few feet away from another person: you will use communal washrooms and you will eat every meal together, seated in the same chair, and you will pray seven times a day, repeating the same prayers, seated in the same place.

Your life will be ruled by the Abbot; he will assign your tasks and order punishments if he wishes to, you will have to obey him without question.

You will pass your life in the same monastery, with the same people; though you live to be 100 you will never leave. You will know their habits and you will have to try to be nice, even though after a few decades you will really be working at trying to do so.

Not for everybody ...

 

[CobblersApprentice]

Call Him God, universal consciousness, the Creator .. what you will..
NB God is neither male or female, but in 'Shakespeare's English' denotes respect



Yes, indeed .. What is God exactly? Is it even possible to define?
"God is closer to us than our jugular vein" - Quran

As this is an Inter-faith forum, an excerpt from D T Suzuki's book, "Buddha of Infinite Light"....

We believe in Amida Buddha as our Oya-sama, or Oya-san, as it is sometimes called. It is the term used to express love and compassion. Oya means parent, but not either parent, rather both mother and father; not separate personalities, but both fatherly and motherly qualities united in one personality. The honorific san is the familiar form of sama. The latter, Oya-sama, is the standard form. In Christianity, God is adressed as the Father - "Our Father who art in heaven" - but Oya-sama is not in heaven, nor is Oya-sama Father. It is incorrect to say "he" or "she," for no gender distinction is found. I don't like to say "it," so I don't know what to say. Oya-sama is a unique word, deeply endearing and at the same time rich with religious significance and warmth.

So we don't know what to say, which perhaps is best in some ways....

 

[CobblersApprentice]

You will rarely be more than a few feet away from another person: you will use communal washrooms and you will eat every meal together, seated in the same chair, and you will pray seven times a day, repeating the same prayers, seated in the same place.

Your life will be ruled by the Abbot; he will assign your tasks and order punishments if he wishes to, you will have to obey him without question.

You will pass your life in the same monastery, with the same people; though you live to be 100 you will never leave. You will know their habits and you will have to try to be nice, even though after a few decades you will really be working at trying to do so.

Not for everybody ...

Yes, even Merton had a few run-ins with the Abbot. But then eventually got his very own hermitage.

 

[Cino]

Yes, even Merton had a few run-ins with the Abbot. But then eventually got his very own hermitage.

There is a German Benedictine Monk turned Zen master, Willigis Jäger. He was prefect to another renowned German monk, Anselm Grün. On Jäger's 90th birthday, his previous student held a speech, which had this slight note of reproach (to my ears) for something unspoken, maybe his "defecting" to other traditions, maybe a role reversal... anyway, yes, monastic life (in any tradition) and student-teacher relationships are definitely not all happiness and sunshine.

Edited: the speech can be found on youtube, it is in German, however.

 

[RJM]

Yes, even Merton had a few run-ins with the Abbot. But then eventually got his very own hermitage.

They actually elect the Abbot. Then for the 10yrs or so of his term, his word is law. I suppose the Abbot defines the atmosphere of the monastery.

monastic life ... definitely not all happiness and sunshine.

Definitely not. A hard life

 

[Cino]

Definitely not. Very hard life

Do you have first-hand experience, RJM?

Me, I did a few retreats in a couple of traditions. Nothing long-term.

 

[RJM]

Do you have first-hand experience, RJM?

Me, I did a few retreats in a couple of traditions. Nothing long-term.

Yes. I'm quite closely connected to Buckfast Abbey in Devon, UK. Done several retreats. Have moved to Buckfast to be close to the Abbey. It's a spiritual centre.

The monks are mostly very old guys now. There's a sense of being in on the death of it. But it's an important spiritual centre really for the whole South West of England. My life would be poorer without it.

I'm not strongly Catholic or religious. But it matters a lot to me, the Abbey and the few monks left ...

 

[RJM]

I hear the bells, from my house, marking the times and services, and the Angelus bells at noon and 6pm. Lovely, really. But life inside isn't really what people like to think, lol

 

[muhammad_isa]

..In Christianity, God is adressed as the Father - "Our Father who art in heaven" - but Oya-sama is not in heaven, nor is Oya-sama Father..

Yes, "our Father" .. He created us .. and yes, He is in heaven .. but where is that exactly?
Lots of questions .. some people seem to think that if you can't answer them then it is unreliable dogma.
Seems reasonable, but it is better than making it up

I wouldn't expect to know everything about God .. many things are hidden from us for a good reason.
He has made known to us the important things .. such as:
"we will spiritually journey on from plane to plane"

eg. we are born .. we are weaned and become an adult .. we become parents and then grandparents..
..and finally return to our Maker

 

[muhammad_isa]

I hear the bells, from my house, marking the times and services, and the Angelus bells at noon and 6pm..

That's nice .. I'm from Bournemouth originally. I live in Worcestershire now..

 

[No.One]

My definition of God is ‘from’ a no(thing)..this would make every(thing)/any(thing) belonging to no(thing). It’s like numbers...1 cannot start/or be without a zero.
A Nothing or zero gives volume/ or a creative of space...for an (ORDER) to begin. With(out) n(one)..one cannot begin. And just like us humans..we are one..but many say nothing doesn’t exist, which I say it does!..so question is for whom listens, what is nothing?To me no(thing) is where we come from and whom we are and for this reason I know that my absolute truth as well as ‘yours’..and why it’s our absolute? Because before this life..it was blank!! Which makes it absolute, and the truth we all share together, and many have forgotten. from us being humans be not like from being a ‘thing’..but for a soul and its spirit is from what NOT a (thing) can ever be. IMO...there is God. Through our souls is where one might find..but the spirit of many are robbed by things of man-made(things)..blinding one busyness instead of their own work.

IMO