"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

[RJM]

Also, he lies to the child about his real intentions. This story goes very deep.

Well, surely it was kinder to lie? Anyway, the point is he could have given his child a barbiturates injection that he died in sleep. As I said, it's about the sacrifice of his son, not about the knife and the altar. It's not pretty, but we're not supposed to like it. We all know the world's not a pretty place, much of the time?

Back in childhood and adolescence, I was more in the other situation, of being the sacrificial token confidant of adult parents in a dysfunctional relationship with each other. So that was what I got from the story from early on.

It sounds horrible. I do believe we have to make the effort to get over childhood stuff as we get older -- as a stick to beat the Bible/God with, I mean? I went to boys only boarding school from the age of 7yrs. Jesuits. First nuns and later priests.

We came from farms hundreds of miles from the nearest city. Most of us were boarders. Dormitories sleeping about 40 boys, with a metal locker each, We had to make our beds and polish our shoes. If we reported sick we really had to be sick. I was called by my surname, never my first name. Everybody was.

We showered together and ate together, there was always threat of corporal punishment, and we were bullied all the time by the seniors. Never a moment of privacy. I was saturated with religion all the time.

But as I said before: it didn't make me a poor abused child. And it didn't turn me against religion. It gave me a respect for the value of religion in what was actually quite a tough life. It taught me to think for myself.

There was enough regimentation and discipline every day, that it was my own right to my own mind that was my real privacy. No-one was going to tell me what I had to believe. I could pretend to agree, but my thoughts were my own.

(edited, sorry)

Spiritual purity cannot be achieved by eating black pudding ...

Yuk! Pig's blood. I'd rather starve ...

 

[CobblersApprentice]

I do believe we have to make the effort to get over childhood stuff as we get older

"Make the effort" Oh yes. Some are more successful than others, that's if I dare use the word "success" after my quote from Merton. Can we ever be totally free of "childhood stuff" or do we always only ever react to it?

Reading a lot of biographies, there are a few that relate an early childhood of "abuse" or religious indoctrination. Some are crippled for a lifetime. And who are we to judge, not having had the same experience?

The most interesting, in terms of indoctrination, was of James Joyce. He never "escaped" as such but his "captivity" is illuminating. God became a "shout in the street."

 

[RJM]

Make the effort" Oh yes. Some are more successful than others, that's if I dare use the word "success" after my quote from Merton. Can we ever be totally free of "childhood stuff" or do we always only ever react to it?

I apologise, I edited that comment slightly:

I do believe we have to make the effort to get over childhood stuff as we get older -- as a stick to beat the Bible/God with, I mean?

I am sorry, late editing is a very irritating habit of mine.

Can we ever be totally free of "childhood stuff" or do we always only ever react to it?

Fine, but as long as we acknowledge it's not a valid adult reason?

 

[CobblersApprentice]

I apologise, I edited that comment slightly:


I am sorry, late editing is a very irritating habit of mine.

Fine, but as long as we acknowledge it's not a valid adult reason?

My bad. I had your full edit.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

MY CORRECTION:
5000 years ago [aka 3000 BCE]

Hmm .. this makes no sense to me.
Why would G-d appear 7000 years ago, but not now? What does it even mean that He appeared?

Hmm .. this makes no sense to me. ---there was more to pre-western history than you thought.

eg. what does G-d look like? .. did He inhabit a physical body? .. what sort of game is G-d playing to appear and disappear?

Why would G-d appear 5000 years ago, but not now?
---He appeared. That's when it occurred. Just before the present age [Kali-yuga] began.

What does it even mean that He appeared? ---He said himself why in the Gita chapters of the Mahabharata:
Chapter 4, Verse 5
The Blessed Lord said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

Chapter 4, Verse 6
Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all sentient beings, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

Chapter 4, Verse 7
Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself.

Chapter 4, Verse 8
In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium.

Here God was advising his cousin the warrior Prince on the first day of a famous civil war that took place 5000 years ago.
This was exactly when the Bhagavad-gita was spoken by Krishna Himself.

This was Krishna's response to his cousin Arjuna's request to see God's universal omnipresence:

When this vision un-nerved him, Arjuna, asked to see God again in his regular two armed form:

The cult of Krishna Vasudeva (IASTkṛṣṇa vāsudeva "Krishna, son of Vasudeva") is historically one of the earliest forms of worship in Krishnaism and Vaishnavism. This tradition is considered separately to other traditions that led to amalgamation at a later stage of the historical development, that form the basis of current tradition of monotheistic religion of Krishna.[1][2]Some early scholars would equate it with Bhagavatism,[3] and the founder of this religious tradition is believed to be Krishna, who is the son of Vasudeva, thus his name is Vāsudeva, and according to them his followers called themselves Bhagavatas and this religion had formed by the 2nd century BC (the time of Patanjali), or as early as the 4th century BC according to evidence of Pāṇini and that of Megasthenes and in the Arthashastra of Kautilya, when Vāsudeva was worshiped as supreme Deity in a strongly monotheistic format, where the supreme Being was perfect, eternal and full of grace.[4] In many sources outside of the cult, devotee or bhakta is defined as Vāsudevaka.[5]Harivamsa, a later addition to Mahabharata as well asBhagavata purana speak about his childhood in the village of Vrindavana, where Krishna passed his childhood and teenage days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna_in_the_Mahabharata

 

[CobblersApprentice]

MY CORRECTION:
5000 years ago [aka 3000 BCE]


Why would G-d appear 5000 years ago, but not now?
---He appeared. That's when it occurred. Just before the present age [Kali-yuga] began.

What does it even mean that He appeared? ---He said himself why in the Gita chapters of the Mahabharata:

Here God was advising his cousin the warrior Prince on the first day of a famous civil war that took place 5000 years ago.
This was exactly when the Bhagavad-gita was spoken by Krishna Himself.

This was Krishna response to his cousin Arjuna's request to see God's universal omnipresence:

When this vision un-nerved him, Arjuna, asked to see God again in his regular two armed form:

The cult of Krishna Vasudeva (IASTkṛṣṇa vāsudeva "Krishna, son of Vasudeva") is historically one of the earliest forms of worship in Krishnaism and Vaishnavism. This tradition is considered separately to other traditions that led to amalgamation at a later stage of the historical development, that form the basis of current tradition of monotheistic religion of Krishna.[1][2]Some early scholars would equate it with Bhagavatism,[3] and the founder of this religious tradition is believed to be Krishna, who is the son of Vasudeva, thus his name is Vāsudeva, and according to them his followers called themselves Bhagavatas and this religion had formed by the 2nd century BC (the time of Patanjali), or as early as the 4th century BC according to evidence of Pāṇini and that of Megasthenes and in the Arthashastra of Kautilya, when Vāsudeva was worshiped as supreme Deity in a strongly monotheistic format, where the supreme Being was perfect, eternal and full of grace.[4] In many sources outside of the cult, devotee or bhakta is defined as Vāsudevaka.[5]Harivamsa, a later addition to Mahabharata as well asBhagavata purana speak about his childhood in the village of Vrindavana, where Krishna passed his childhood and teenage days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna_in_the_Mahabharata

Lovely pictures

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Why would G-d appear ... years ago, but not now?

His appearance was akin to having occurred two minutes ago.

God shows up in His original-original [sva-rupa] form once in every day-of-Brahma.

The rest of the times He appears as per time and place and as per requirements needed to elevate people's freewill.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I

Blood is a complex fluid.

I have heard that blood carries one's karma.

Remember that rubber gloves and face masks are to prevent transmissions of 'bodily fluids'.

"Swapping spit" is the same ---transmissions of one's karma.

So BTW when a Chef talks-over food or sweat drips into his food ---ya'll get dividends of the cook's good or bad past acts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have heard that blood carries one's karma.

I think so..
I would prefer the karma of sheep to that of pigs.
Blood also contains hormones .. even the eating of any meats should be controlled.
The prophet Muhammad, peace be with him, lived on a diet of mainly milk and dates.

He would partake of meat dishes, but not frequently.
The western world has become unbalanced. The eating of large amounts of food, including meat, is ruining their health.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..God shows up in His original-original [sva-rupa] form once in every day-of-Brahma.

..so G-d comes down from heaven and "pretends" to be one of His creation every now and then?
G-d does NOT involve Himself in trickery. He has angels and prophets to do His bidding.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

prophets

This is another concept that I don't know where it came from SO THAT the mere mention of it should hold importance?

Prophet? Since when is Prophets of any kind in any epoch held as some one important? Is it not the same as "shaman" or "soothsayer".

I'd guess a prophet is a sage...
But I don't think a sage need be a prophet UNLESS he had a sudden insight ---and then the word prophet would be a verb:
The sage "prophesied".

Okay, a prophesying sage could be called a prophet, esp after he makes lots of prophesies he'd be called a "prophetyser"

Geez, this makes me question, "What is the historical origin of prophets prophesying and what made them legit?

 

[Bhaktajan II]

The eating of large amounts of food, including meat, is ruining their health.

I made a thread about mass-bad-karma ---it's not my original idea:

MEAT EATING CAUSES WARS! Refute it?
Discussion in 'Politics and Society' started by bhaktajan, Nov 20, 2012.
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/16043/

 

[CobblersApprentice]

This is another concept that I don't know where it came from SO THAT the mere mention of it should hold importance?

Prophet? Since when is Prophets of any kind in any epoch held as some one important? Is it not the same as "shaman" or "soothsayer".

I'd guess a prophet is a sage...
But I don't think a sage need be a prophet UNLESS he had a sudden insight ---and then the word prophet would be a verb:
The sage "prophesied".

Okay, a prophesying sage could be called a prophet, esp after he makes lots of prophesies he'd be called a "prophetyser"

Geez, this makes me question, "What is the historical origin of prophets prophesying and what made them legit?

Not sure about origins but the idea of a "prophet" seems to range from one who foresees the future irrespective of how humankind acts, to one who would say if this, then that, and calls for repentance. There are thus prophets seen as fortune tellers and prophets as understood by the great Jewish rabbi Abraham Herschel.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

..so G-d comes down from heaven and "pretends" to be one of His creation every now and then?
G-d does NOT involve Himself in trickery. He has angels and prophets to do His bidding.

Yes unless He wants to. He has even fought and killed demons as a baby, teen and as an adult.

He has been quoted by the maker of the atomic bomb Professor Oppenheimer:
"I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita
[Vishnu (Krishna) is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and,
to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says],
'Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.''

 

[Bhaktajan II]

He has angels and prophets to do His bidding.

Yes. Not a leaf stirs ...in every season...

Those eligible to do such service, come with all stratum of skills.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

.so G-d comes down from heaven and "pretends" to be one of His creation every now and then?

Yes that is correct ---it's called AVATARA. Avatar is a Sanskrit word for just that.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Avatar (Sanskrit: अवतार, IAST: avatāra), a concept in Hinduism that means "descent", is the material appearance or incarnation of a deity on earth. The relative verb to "alight, to make one's appearance" is sometimes used to refer to any guru or revered human being....

Theologically, the term is most often associated with the Hindu god Vishnu, though the idea has been applied to other deities.[10] Varying lists of avatars of Vishnu appear in Hindu scriptures, including the ten Dashavatara of the Garuda Puranaand the twenty-two avatars in the Bhagavata Purana, though the latter adds that the incarnations of Vishnu are innumerable. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

BUT OTOH, many have sought to attain theirown version of self-ordained Godhood:
[do you remember this oldie?]:

 

[Arif Ghamiq]

The Islamic concept of "Prophet" is not what is generally understood - it is not simply "one who fortells the future".

The word is Nabiyy - from the root naba'a meaning "to be high, lofty", "giving news", "relaying information".

Nubuwwat (Prophet-hood) is given by Allah Al Wahaab (The Bestower) bestowed upon one of His choosing - giving them a lofty position, status and/or rank of dignity with Allah. It is an elevation given by Allah Ar-Rafi (The Upraiser).

In the Islamic sense a Nabiyy brings news, information and Shareeat (Law/Code).

A person came to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and said "Ya Nabi' Allah", meaning "one who (by Allah) fortells the future" - the Prophet told him to say "Ya Nabiyy Allah" - which is without a Hamzah, so that the meaning is different, not someone who predicts the future.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes that is correct ---it's called AVATARA. Avatar is a Sanskrit word for just that.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Avatar (Sanskrit: अवतार, IAST: avatāra), a concept in Hinduism that means "descent", is the material appearance or incarnation of a deity on earth. The relative verb to "alight, to make one's appearance" is sometimes used to refer to any guru or revered human being....

Fine .. if that's what you want to believe.
Many people claim to be prophets/messengers of God, or "G-d talks to them", or they think they are Jesus etc.

I reject the whole lot.
If Almighty God wishes to guide His creation, He will make it clear the difference between truth and falsehood.
He has done that to my satisfaction. G-d does NOT incarnate Himself into human beings.
No human being should be worshipped, as G-d, or as anybody at all.
If G-d has uncles, aunties, grandfathers etc, it means that God was born.

It is not only illogical but leads to worshipping idols and falsehood.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

if that's what you want to believe.

Et viola, Interfaith.

What has happened here Sadiq is that it's as if we met in many conflicts since before the Roman times, and then after those times, now after countless conflict after conflict has passed by 1WW 2WW etal ---you have been revealed what had been hidden through the millenniums.

Cool paintings? Long wait to see those images.

There are 3 major scriptures in the world:
Koran,
Bible,
Vedic Literatures.

And thus 3 lineages, many branches.

After all of western history to date has occurred you have been shown the Face of God.

You see, out of the above scriptures there is one where God is speaking directly what is what.

Just as I am an orthodox Hindu myself...I am due the same Faith as you would, say, trust the Taxi driver not to crash.

All Glories to Shree Krishna!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

He will make it clear the difference between truth and falsehood.
He has done that to my satisfaction. G-d does NOT incarnate Himself into human beings.

So you are a higher authority than meets the eye?

Of all the things I posted ---which were you fully aware of?

None?

And now you are as if a Guru.

Many wise things may be garnered via unexpected sources, no?