https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ruscovid19latestinsights/deaths#deaths-by-age
Sense of proportion please
Ditto
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CORONA VIRUS
- Thread starter RJM
- Start date
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ruscovid19latestinsights/deaths#deaths-by-age
Sense of proportion please
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
My family is fully vaccinated (except for the youngest who is 10 as no vaccine has been approved by Government of India for his age group (though meetings are being held to decide about it). Some schools have been started in states other than Delhi. None in my family encountered any problem with vaccination. I am thinking of booster doses.
All India today, deaths: 211, new infections: 8306, recovered: 8834. Delhi has 370 active cases, deaths in November: 6. So, the situation is under control at the moment (at least here). Kerala alone contributing 161 death. Deaths in other states 10 or less (we have 10 states with population exceeding 50 million, Kerala is 35 million).
And Kerala was the model state in initial stages for Covid prevention and treatment. But somewhere, in some way, it has gone all wrong. Of course, Kerala has the highest number of people working overseas.
I see, situation dangerous in UK, Russia, Germany, etc., UK reporting 51,000 new cases.
All India today, deaths: 211, new infections: 8306, recovered: 8834. Delhi has 370 active cases, deaths in November: 6. So, the situation is under control at the moment (at least here). Kerala alone contributing 161 death. Deaths in other states 10 or less (we have 10 states with population exceeding 50 million, Kerala is 35 million).
And Kerala was the model state in initial stages for Covid prevention and treatment. But somewhere, in some way, it has gone all wrong. Of course, Kerala has the highest number of people working overseas.
I see, situation dangerous in UK, Russia, Germany, etc., UK reporting 51,000 new cases.
A third of middle-age adults in UK have more than one chronic health condition.
It is an even greater percentage for older adults, of course.
It is therefore no surprise, that the number of cases are so high,
as chronic conditions affect the immune system.
It is also damp in the winter, as we are an island nation, and get a lot of rain.
We've had to live for quite a while now, with continuing restrictions for attending doctors
and hospitals. Before covid, it was either 'flu or noravirus making no-go areas in clinics etc.
When I was a young man, one just went to the doctor without an appointment, and got seen within half an hour.
The hospitals were the same.
So much for "success".
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Because I'll have a much much better likelihood of not needing to go to intensive care and take away the hospital resources from someone else whose condition is not caused by being bloody minded.
I wrote about the situation in my country a couple of days ago. It getting worse. Cancer treatments have to be postponed. Other important planned operations have to be postponed.
I don't think the freedom of an ativaxxer should extend to causing other people to suffer or even die because the IC units are clogged with people dying entirely avoidable deaths due to not being vaccinated.
Strangely, they won't take responsibility for the consequences of their "freedom". If anyone drove their car with as much disregatd for other people's safety, the same people who now insist on their freedom not to take the jab would be demanding life imprisonment for such a reckless driver, I'm sure.
Like I said, I hope you all live in places with fewer selfish boneheads who are a threat to public safety.
EDITED TO ADD: I don't want to offend any of you. I'm frustrated with my country's handling of this forseeable situation, and am reacting to this discussion as if you all lived in my town. I know you don't, and I know the situation is different for each one of us. I want to express my solidarity with you all, and hope we all make it through safe and healthy.
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Yes, I know. We've still got a backlog of so-called "routine operations", and cancer treatment is delayed etc. It's been going on for months.
..and we have masses of people risking their lives to get here, as they think this country is some kind of utopia.
It just goes to show what state the world is in.
It sounds like the proverbial sinking ship, to me. Everybody is clambering for a place, and squabbling with each other.
Isn't it just clutching on straws, to blame people who are unvaccinated?
Isn't it ALL of us to blame for why covid is spreading globally and having so much impact?
The same goes for climate-change.
The calamities that are occurring are going to increase enmity and blame amongst us.
We are ALL to blame, and not just the people who haven't got an electric car or solar panels etc.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
In India, we have Covid beds lying vacant all ready to receive the third wave, if there be one. No dearth of vaccines. Ample ICU beds, no problem about oxygen availability. All expenses borne by the Government. Just two days ago, we vaccinated 10.4 million people in one day.
What is considered illness in UK may be routine in Asia. Perhaps people in West are too fussy. We don't care much about that. For example, psychological maladjustment. Comes up and dissipates. I am surprised that it is so common in West, particularly in the US that people have go to psychologists.
It is my impression but I may be wrong.
'Cr' (Crore) means 10 million, L (lakh) means a hundred thousand.
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So the unvaccinated under 50s are compelled to be vaccinated to stop them clogging the hospitals, although they're not -- because the vaccine really does work -- and to stop them from infecting the vaccinated -- because the vaccine doesn't really work? Even though being vaccinated does not prevent transmission anyway?
This is because of a new vaccine resistant variant, but which has not caused a single hospitalization worldwide?
This is because of a new vaccine resistant variant, but which has not caused a single hospitalization worldwide?
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
There is no compulsion, the people have realized the importance of vaccination. Initially there was resistance from some Muslims. When vaccinators go to villages, elders of the village encourage people to get vaccinated for the safety of their own life and that of other people in village.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...so-no-one-misses-out/articleshow/88097539.cms
Interesting: The Divisional Commissioner is a woman - Prajakta Lavangare-Verma
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...admissions-div-commr/articleshow/84391356.cms
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...so-no-one-misses-out/articleshow/88097539.cms
Interesting: The Divisional Commissioner is a woman - Prajakta Lavangare-Verma
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...admissions-div-commr/articleshow/84391356.cms
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Nagpur Division of Maharashtra, Divisional Commissioner: Prajakta Lavangare-Verma
One of the difficult Maoist infested Divisions. Kudos to Prajakta Lavangare-Verma.
Area: 51,336 Square km; Population 10,665,939.
For all to have double vaccination, India has to achieve 2800 million jabs.
One of the difficult Maoist infested Divisions. Kudos to Prajakta Lavangare-Verma.
Area: 51,336 Square km; Population 10,665,939.
For all to have double vaccination, India has to achieve 2800 million jabs.
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Hm. Is it about blame, though? Or is it about pragmatically doing something to address our collective situation?
My take is that getting the jab won't fix all of the very real problems you listed, but it will help us all with a very pressing one, so we can move on to address more of the other problems. Not getting it frankly seems petty to me, at this point, and even malicious in an "I want to see the world burn" way.
I'm reacting to you as if you were part of the discourse here in Germany, which you aren't, and which is unfair to you. I'm sorry I can't seem to keep this straight, I try but it's not working. I have to leave this thread alone for a while. See you in the forums!
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So the logic for compelling people under 50 who are themselves unlikely to incur dangerous covid to take a basically untested drug with potentially harmful long-term effects – is to help clear covid hospital beds? Although it doesn't effectively prevent transmission to those who in spite of vaccination are still open to infection -- and in spite of the fact that under 50's are only a very small percentage of people hospitalized?
But covid has already come up with this new vaccine resistant variant, and will continue to do so – compelling under 50s to have annual ‘variant adapted’ injections of similarly untested and potentially harmful new drugs? Even if the variant is essentially harmless, as with this one?
The point is that people who do not see the logic of all this are not all raving anti-vaxx zealots. It is unreasonable to talk to them as if they are. It would be better to convince them with a logical argument to risk their own personal long term health. But there isn’t one.
Compulsory vaccination is quite wrong.
But covid has already come up with this new vaccine resistant variant, and will continue to do so – compelling under 50s to have annual ‘variant adapted’ injections of similarly untested and potentially harmful new drugs? Even if the variant is essentially harmless, as with this one?
The point is that people who do not see the logic of all this are not all raving anti-vaxx zealots. It is unreasonable to talk to them as if they are. It would be better to convince them with a logical argument to risk their own personal long term health. But there isn’t one.
Compulsory vaccination is quite wrong.
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There are a lot more people around now?
Just a "heads up" for those with smaller children: https://www.insider.com/fifth-grader-died-from-covid-brother-got-vaccine-weeks-later-2021-12
A little before the COVID-19 vaccine was approved for those five years and over, a young girl died from COVID-19 that she either caught at school or on the school bus. Prior to that, she was asymptomatic for other illnesses.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
A little before the COVID-19 vaccine was approved for those five years and over, a young girl died from COVID-19 that she either caught at school or on the school bus. Prior to that, she was asymptomatic for other illnesses.
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
But it's not the norm? Does one unusual anamolous death justify imposing mandatory vaccination with a rushed-out untested drug upon the rest of the population?
@Cino I know you want to leave the discussion for now, but I think you need to find another analogy than the road user one. Driving is a privilege conferred by a test and a license, which can be withdrawn. Being born into a society is not the same thing at all?
They could not predict the vaccine would wear down after a few months; they have no way of predicting long-term effects years down the line. Many people will think the benefit outweighs the risk and choose to take it. But there can be no justification for compulsion. Imo
I'm not sure..
What proportion of the population need to be vaccinated to make it statistically significant?
I understand that the underlying claim is that vaccination makes it less likely to die from covid, and hospitalisation..
..but isn't that debatable?
Can one conclude from the datasets, that it is purely vaccination that decides whether somebody is hospitalised or not?
I think we have to understand the difference in circumstances between healthy people who have no fear of vaccination,
and those that are wary due to socio-economic difficulties.
This differentiating between vacccinated and non-vaccinated will impact the lives of those who are, by and large,
more disadvantaged than others.
Educated experts on these issues, including the WHO, have also pointed this out.
Vaccination success depends on a significant amount of people taking up the vaccine.
Coercion might not work to the advantage of health systems, in the long run.
There are many reasons why some people prefer not to be vaccinated.
It is not confined to bloody-mindedness.
No problem .. I quite understand what you are saying, but I think that threatening people with "compulsion" is not the way.
I think that that is a panic reaction, as vaccines are only part of the solution.
It applies to all of us. UK has already faced the situation that you are currently facing, and it is grim, I would agree.
To be of age, a responsible adult in society, is a privilege, I think. It is conferred by reaching a certain age, having learned a lot of knowledge and rules, agreeing to be held responsible for keeping to the rules, etc. The driving license is just a highly stylized case. Society can and does take away this privilege in various ways and to various degrees: imprisonment, being placed under guardianship, being held in a psychiatric institution, being put in a nursing home for the elderly...
To be part of society means that the border between the individual's freedom and those of other individuals is constantly being (re-)negotiated. The anti-vaxxers are claiming too much freedom for themselves, at the expense of the rest of society, at least over here in Germany. They are, to my sensibility, really like someone who is claiming the right to drive at high speed in foggy weather with poor visibility, or some other reckless driving maneuver, putting others in danger.
Maybe a better analogy would be the tourists who go mountain climbing in the Alps, or those w****rs who leave the marked ski routes to enjoy the deep untouched snow and set off an avalanche. They claim it is their right to do so, but when they get themselves and others into trouble, rescue missions have to be sent, possibly endangering the rescuers, medical personel have to treat their injuries, and so on. If one person does this, it's a nuisance. Right now there are hundreds of thoursands of these id***s swarming over the metaphorical Eiger North Face, and the rescue helicopter pilots and mountain guides are stretched over their limits. While it is part of the social contract to help those in peril, I feel that in such a scenario, it is valid for society to cut down on the rights of the would-be mountaineers and restrict their freedom to enter the dangerous area. Likewise, it is legitimate for society to expect everyone to take a jab. I'm old enough to have the scar of my smallpox jab on my shoulder. My child never had to be vaccinated against smallpox. I know the virus is different and we'll all have to take repeat doses before this is under control, but what I'm referring to is the sense of having done my part for the wellbeing of my fellow human beings that I still get when I notice that old scar.
There's a fine line between claiming one's freedom and acting like an entitled arse. And right now, here in Germany, it's becoming increasingly infuriating to watch the antivaxxers claim it is their right to not care about the well-being of everyone else. (Until they are in intensive care, that is, then they tend to appeal to the medical personnel to care for them).
As I keep stating, I am reacting to the situation in my country, even if I am replying to points you raise.
Now it is really time to for me to take a break from this thread.
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Let's take a look at the current data from Germany, I took a screenshot just now to preserve the current state of affairs:
The dark purple areas are those with the highest number of infections in the last 7 days. The magenta ones are the second hightest.
Southern Germany - Bavaria in the south-east, and Baden-Württembert to the south-west, are almost solid magenta. Very high incidence. That's where the population is on average the wealthiest! It is also where people don't get vaccinated, because they trust the homeopathic sugar pills or whatever quack medicine more than "school medicine". It is also where the education system is the best. High socio-economic status on average.
The dark purple areas on Eastern Germany - around Chemnitz and Dresden - are less well off, but still, these are areas where people live in rural areas, in real-estate properties they own, single-family homes with gardens. You'll notice the cities - Dresden, Chemintz - are less purple. That is actually where the poorer citizens live, closer together, and yet, the vaccination rates are highter than in the rural areas around them.
Now look at Western Germany, the Essen/Düsseldorf/Köln metropolitan area. This is the most densely populated area in Germany, and people tend to have lower socio-economic status, many working poor, many who moved there from other countries. And yet, lower incidence, and better vaccination rate.
We are flying patients from the South and East to the West, because of full ICU wards.
In Thuringia - the dark purple area in the geographic center of Germany, west of Leipzig - a crematorium sustained damage due to being operated over specs. Too many cremations.
So in Germany, socio-economic status is not linked to the willingness to get the jab. It's not religion (southern Germany is more religious, the East is mostly atheist). It's not political affiliation: the south-west is governed by the Green party, this is where the Tesla driving organic food eating folks live whom you alluded to in an earlier post, the East is where the fascist-in-all-but-name party got the hightest vote. It is not population density.
The most ironic thing is, Germany already has a perfectly good federal law which would permit vaccination to be mandatory. This law was invoked numerous times in the past, for the smallpox thing, for MMR, for other vaccination programs. But there were parliamentary elections this summer, so the old government didn't want to ruin its party's chances of re-election, and none of the contenders wanted to broach the subject, and so the new coalition is probably not going to invoke it either, because it was never part of the coalition negotiations to decide on this.
Ok. Now I am really done with this thread for now. Thanks for bearing with me, and see you on some interesting interfaith thread soon!
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You are right @Cino .. I see that in some areas of your country, there are high proportions of unvaccinated people that is driving the increase in hospitalisation.
I had to browse many sites to find the relevant info, in order to make my conclusion.
It wasn't immediately obvious.
Yes, I see.