Oh, Good Lord ... Roosevelt wealth founded on the opium trade!
And I'm 44 minutes in, and this is truly shocking.
CORONA VIRUS
- Thread starter RJM
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And I'm 44 minutes in, and this is truly shocking.
Please try to find time to watch the movie by John Pilger that I posted above. It will change your opinion and you don't have to watch it all at once. I repeat that I know people in China who know a lot of other people there. They hugely resent American interference.
Although China does have territorial objectives within its own close sphere, it is really not the international aggressor the US portrays. In fact the shoe is mostly on the other foot I'm afraid, and it's Western populations who are brainwashed against China not the other way around.
Again I'm not saying everything China does is pretty. But China isn't really interested in expanding its military influence around the globe; it's the US does that. China's major international influence is financial.
They make things and build things -- unlike the West which nowadays depends mostly on money markets and share dealings and so on.
Anywhere I do hope you can find time to watch the movie.
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Appearances can be deceiving..
I am well aware that China is single-minded in its goal to be the wealthiest nation.
I'm sure that they feel power & wealth go hand-in-hand.
Why are they taking over the South China Seas militarily?
Yes, we know that there is oil & gas, but it is more than that.
About a 1/3 of all goods movements in the world passes through that region.
You are clearly not a military strategist.
In the last world war, that area was VERY important indeed.
If China's ambitions are allowed to succeed unchecked, bullying Phillipines, Vietnam, India,
Malaysia, Indonesia etc, what then?
Australia is certainly nervous of their activities.
I suppose it becomes more difficult to right a wrong if it is left too late.
Most of Europe was being taken by force in WWII .. but eventually UK & US
had to do something about it. [ yes .. and Japan ]
I'm afraid your movie, while still having validity, is out of date.
What you and he are effectively saying is that US is "the beast" ..
..so what? I've already acknowledged that.
If you read Revelation carefully you will see that many nations side with the beast "for God's purpose"
i.e. it is ordained
@Thomas says that the UK [ and othe European countries? } will continue
in their hypocricy, and "worship both"
A bit cynical, and again .. a view that is fast becoming out of date.
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I have already made MY view clear. War is undesirable.
God Almighty does not like those who start aggression.
..so it is a question of what should Europe/UK do if it gets to the point of war
between China & US.
What alternative is there? Neutrality?
I can't see it myself .. we just have to choose a side. We can't afford to be ostracised by BOTH!!!
God Almighty does not like those who start aggression.
..so it is a question of what should Europe/UK do if it gets to the point of war
between China & US.
What alternative is there? Neutrality?
I can't see it myself .. we just have to choose a side. We can't afford to be ostracised by BOTH!!!
Not really. Anyway I know that 2 hours is a lot to ask of anybody's time. But it's not hard work; it's a balanced well made documentary and easy to watch. It may offer China hard-liners some facts and knowledge they're not aware of. Reminds me to watch it again.
As for The Book of Revelation: it means a lot of different things to lots of different people -- it has for 2000 years, imo
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OK, what do you think we should do?
I don't know your strategic insight, but your Scripture interpretation is a dubious thesis, the Book of Revelation, as RJM said, is a symbolic language that can be applied in any number of ways, and each generation tends to come up with its own contemporary interpretation. Same with Nostradamus.
I quite agree with you both.
However, I am not just relying on that. I am also aware of religious knowledge
about the "end-times" from Islamic sources too.
Does it mention China specifically? No.
Am I certain that China is involved?
Again, no. However, things are happening faster & faster.
That is no surprise. I AM sure that that is a major sign of the times.
As events unfold, I am putting 2 & 2 together. Naturally, one can get their sums wrong.
I am right about one thing, and that's for sure. Enmity between US and China is escalating, and a lot of people in the world are cheesed off with China.
They have never apologised for not containing the virus, with govt. spokesman even suggesting that Italy had it first!
Forgive me for not having much sympathy for China. It is irrelevant to me whether the "Chinese people" are happy with their govt. or not. I don't believe that they are not "re-educating" over a million Chinese Muslims.
Islam has been systematically dismantled. The official religion of the state is "atheism", which I was under the impression is not a religion.
I suppose it could be, if you had an anti-God, nationalistic agenda.
It matters little whether you worship Socialism or Capitalism. They both seem intent on amassing great wealth.
Any believer in God knows that that is the path to destruction.
Individual selfish and/or nationalistic materialism is self-defeating. It is destructive by nature.
NB Did I mention that I have lived in HongKong for 4 years? It was a long time ago now.
This is true and the repression is brutal. No denying. It's very nasty business. But it does not constitute international aggression by China justifying WW3.
We need to wait until China actually sends invading troops into NATO countries before starting world war III against them. And I can tell you though, China isn't going to do it. That's just not going to happen. China is not going to be the aggressor.
So if we want to have our nuclear WW III we're going to have to find another reason to launch the fighting war against China. Imo. And no doubt we will soon come up with one ...
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I assume that by "we", you mean the rest of the world.
I have already made my view clear. War is the last resort.
What on earth makes you think that?
In any case, it doesn't matter who's to blame.
Could be China .. could be US .. could be both.
The result is the same.
Again .. the "we" .
UK can have their own views, but are not in a position to engage in war, in any case
We are becoming a poorer nation. Yes, we are part of the G7 or what have you. That's the point.
We are obliged to follow the leader. ..and that will not be China.
-------------------------------
I remind you of the latest headlines:
South China Sea dispute: China's pursuit of resources 'unlawful', says US
UK and China relationship 'seriously poisoned', says Beijing's ambassador to London
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A Cup Of Tea
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My friend, I hear a lot of fear from you, I'm sorry to hear this. I hope it all ends well and that you can find peace soon.
May I offer my limited perspective, which probably means very little to you.
China is authoritarian, like Russia, North Korea and, depending on the president, the US. Part of their politics is show of force, of fearlessness. Looking back through the decades you will find constant moves of aggression, not a lot have or will change on that front.
Secondly, I will say the same thing you admit, we can't really know what will happen. Political changes within the party can alter their plans drastically. But that has always been the case, and for every super power out there. Little nations like ours often have little to say about it.
Thirdly, I want to acknowledge their treatment of Muslims within their borders. It is despicable and inhuman. I feel helpless in how Muslims and others minorities are treated through out the world.
The world is a dreadful place, all we can do is to try and find peace and beauty.
If China is at risk of blowing its chance to lead, then others have calculated that a fleeting chance exists for the middle-power democracies, some with nuclear weapons, to hold greater sway. There is talk of a D10 of democracies – in essence, the G7 plus Australia, India and Korea. It is an idea that might fly if Joe Biden is elected US president. But it would require greater restraint from Washington about how far to push the confrontation with China.
- The Guardian
And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire.
- The Guardian
And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire.
And the Far Right is still creeping out of the shadows in Europe ... and India is heading that way ...
The UK, especially a UK out of the European Union, will find itself a 'little nation' and largely irrelevant in global affairs by the end of this year. If the money markets move to Europe, then we're certainly sliding into a steepening decline.
Hear, hear!
To find peace within oneself is the first step to finding peace in the world.
OK — Let's take a leaf from Isa's book:
"It seems that people are becoming polarised on this issue, with strong views on both sides. I prefer to take a "step back", and be objective .. I try to see both sides point of view."
OK.
What are the roots of the China Crisis? basically, China is funding exports resulting in Chinese goods being cheaper than the domestic product in foreign markets. Notably steel, for example. And Trump, who is all about the market, got embroiled in a trade war ...
... from there, the Trump administration moved to casting China as today's Soviet Russia.
The following is a precis from the Foreign Affairs website:
US National Security Adviser Robert O’Brien: "Let us be clear, the Chinese Communist Party is a Marxist-Leninist organization. The Party General Secretary Xi Jinping sees himself as Josef Stalin’s successor."
Vice President Mike Pompeo: "General Secretary Xi Jinping is a true believer in a bankrupt totalitarian ideology ... (Xi’s ideology) informs his decades-long desire for global hegemony of Chinese communism" and "If the free world doesn’t change ... communist China will surely change us" and Tweeted: "China is working to take down freedom all across the world."
It is about ideology. The United States is a democracy; China is a dictatorship and has grown more autocratic under Xi.
But does China seek to conquer the world and replace democracies with Marxist-Leninist dictatorships?
The CCP under Xi runs a ruthless and oppressive dictatorship. It stifles individual freedoms, jails dissidents and rivals, and has sent countless Uighurs and other minorities to internment camps in what some experts have classified as cultural genocide. But “Xi-ism” is still not Stalinism. Stalin’s regime was far more totalitarian, killed millions and imprisoned millions more. So far, compared to Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot, Xi does not make this list.
Also — Chinese citizens enjoy much greater autonomy over their own economic well-being than Soviet citizens. China is a more open, market-oriented and globally integrated economy. On this dimension, the comparison is not even close. Chinese students study abroad. The China tourist trade is massive. The affluent Chinese wants world goods, not a world made in their own image.
Stalin proclaimed his desire for a global communist revolution. The KGB, the GRU and the Party imposed communism across Eastern Europe. He assisted Mao’s Chinese Communist Party, and supplied covert assistance to communists everywhere, encouraged proxy military forces in the Korean War and supported coups around the world.
The US has a long history in 'regime change', running counter-communist operations into Eastern Europe, pledging support for various countries and peoples, and then abandoning them without a second thought when the situation changes. It's strong-armed its desires throughout S America. It's supported the Saud family in Arabia, its empowered and supported right-wing totalitarian regimes throughout the Middle and Far East ... closer to home, it offered the UK right assistance against the New Labour movement of Tony Blair, and funds anti-European elements throughout Europe, notably the UK's Brexit campaign. It was caught spying on the German Chancellor.
Xi, by contrast, has not orchestrated the overthrow of a single regime.
(Hong Kong comes closest, but questions of sovereignty cloud the analogy.)
Beijing has invested resources in propagating its ideas, and provided surveillance technologies and economic aid to sustain autocracies in other countries. But Xi has yet to instigate a coup, arm insurgents, or invade a democracy and install a communist regime.
In fact, Communist China has nowhere near the track record of Democratic America when it comes to undermining independent governments that don't serve American self-interest. Nowhere near.
Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin has been much bolder and more aggressive on that front – expanding its regional controls, withdrawing from arms treaties, interfering in electoral processes, assassinating dissidents abroad – but Trump likes Putin, so that's OK.
Meanwhile ... do watch the link that RJM supplied, and explain how America's highly secretive arms expansion and its declared desire for total dominance of 'air, land, sea, space and cyber spheres' in the Pacific region contributes to global peace.
Let alone offer any acceptable apology for the American treatment of the people in the region, then and now.
"It seems that people are becoming polarised on this issue, with strong views on both sides. I prefer to take a "step back", and be objective .. I try to see both sides point of view."
OK.
What are the roots of the China Crisis? basically, China is funding exports resulting in Chinese goods being cheaper than the domestic product in foreign markets. Notably steel, for example. And Trump, who is all about the market, got embroiled in a trade war ...
... from there, the Trump administration moved to casting China as today's Soviet Russia.
The following is a precis from the Foreign Affairs website:
US National Security Adviser Robert O’Brien: "Let us be clear, the Chinese Communist Party is a Marxist-Leninist organization. The Party General Secretary Xi Jinping sees himself as Josef Stalin’s successor."
Vice President Mike Pompeo: "General Secretary Xi Jinping is a true believer in a bankrupt totalitarian ideology ... (Xi’s ideology) informs his decades-long desire for global hegemony of Chinese communism" and "If the free world doesn’t change ... communist China will surely change us" and Tweeted: "China is working to take down freedom all across the world."
It is about ideology. The United States is a democracy; China is a dictatorship and has grown more autocratic under Xi.
But does China seek to conquer the world and replace democracies with Marxist-Leninist dictatorships?
The CCP under Xi runs a ruthless and oppressive dictatorship. It stifles individual freedoms, jails dissidents and rivals, and has sent countless Uighurs and other minorities to internment camps in what some experts have classified as cultural genocide. But “Xi-ism” is still not Stalinism. Stalin’s regime was far more totalitarian, killed millions and imprisoned millions more. So far, compared to Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Pol Pot, Xi does not make this list.
Also — Chinese citizens enjoy much greater autonomy over their own economic well-being than Soviet citizens. China is a more open, market-oriented and globally integrated economy. On this dimension, the comparison is not even close. Chinese students study abroad. The China tourist trade is massive. The affluent Chinese wants world goods, not a world made in their own image.
Stalin proclaimed his desire for a global communist revolution. The KGB, the GRU and the Party imposed communism across Eastern Europe. He assisted Mao’s Chinese Communist Party, and supplied covert assistance to communists everywhere, encouraged proxy military forces in the Korean War and supported coups around the world.
The US has a long history in 'regime change', running counter-communist operations into Eastern Europe, pledging support for various countries and peoples, and then abandoning them without a second thought when the situation changes. It's strong-armed its desires throughout S America. It's supported the Saud family in Arabia, its empowered and supported right-wing totalitarian regimes throughout the Middle and Far East ... closer to home, it offered the UK right assistance against the New Labour movement of Tony Blair, and funds anti-European elements throughout Europe, notably the UK's Brexit campaign. It was caught spying on the German Chancellor.
Xi, by contrast, has not orchestrated the overthrow of a single regime.
(Hong Kong comes closest, but questions of sovereignty cloud the analogy.)
Beijing has invested resources in propagating its ideas, and provided surveillance technologies and economic aid to sustain autocracies in other countries. But Xi has yet to instigate a coup, arm insurgents, or invade a democracy and install a communist regime.
In fact, Communist China has nowhere near the track record of Democratic America when it comes to undermining independent governments that don't serve American self-interest. Nowhere near.
Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin has been much bolder and more aggressive on that front – expanding its regional controls, withdrawing from arms treaties, interfering in electoral processes, assassinating dissidents abroad – but Trump likes Putin, so that's OK.
Meanwhile ... do watch the link that RJM supplied, and explain how America's highly secretive arms expansion and its declared desire for total dominance of 'air, land, sea, space and cyber spheres' in the Pacific region contributes to global peace.
Let alone offer any acceptable apology for the American treatment of the people in the region, then and now.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
India is preparing to reply to China (in case that is necessary). At the moment it is some incursion in a no-man's land, not enough to warrant a response other than a diplomatic one. We have placed Rafale, Sukhoi 31mki, Mirage, Supersonic cruise missiles (Brahmos), Agni IV (3,700 km), helicopters (Chinook, Apache, etc.), tanks and some 30,000 army personnel in Ladakh.
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Regarding the Hong Kong crackdown: it was first precipitated by protests about transferring certain criminals to mainland China for trial.
Hong Kong governor Carrie Lamb quickly capitulated, and the idea was quickly scrapped, and so if things had ended there Hong Kong might probably still be free today.
But the protests escalated and became ugly with looting and rioting, accompanied by all sorts of new and escalating demands that were obviously totally unreasonable to China, which has always regarded Hong Kong as part of China -- as it is.
China may have gone on making special allowances for Hong Kong, but could not ignore the direct open challenge to its own authority, that would not have gone down well at home in mainland China.
As I said earlier poking your dragon with a stick is never going to have a happy ending. Politics is the art of the possible -- someone said?
Hong Kong governor Carrie Lamb quickly capitulated, and the idea was quickly scrapped, and so if things had ended there Hong Kong might probably still be free today.
But the protests escalated and became ugly with looting and rioting, accompanied by all sorts of new and escalating demands that were obviously totally unreasonable to China, which has always regarded Hong Kong as part of China -- as it is.
China may have gone on making special allowances for Hong Kong, but could not ignore the direct open challenge to its own authority, that would not have gone down well at home in mainland China.
As I said earlier poking your dragon with a stick is never going to have a happy ending. Politics is the art of the possible -- someone said?
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..so you'd support China over US?
I mean, why do you urge me to look at all US's faults?
I'm well aware of them. It doesn't change anything.
US is not exporting deadly viruses .. US is not a dictatorship.
As China becomes more isolated due to covid, I expect them to become
more aggressive. This in turn will trigger a response from US.
You might think that US has no right to judge, but that is how it is.
It's been like that for decades.
Incidentally, the US is no longer the strongest economy .. that would be China
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I disagree. I think it's the other way around. Trump is deliberately provoking China to boost his own supporters and of course using the coronavirus as a way to do it. I don't believe people should be taken in by it. Anyway ...
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Nope.
I urge objectivity.
It should. In a reasoned evaluation, it would.
That is an unfounded accusation. In the absence of evidence, you sound as reactionary and ridiculous as Trump. It's racist.
China is guilty of attempting to deny and cover up the outbreak, but then Trump's attitude has been the same. Even the UK's first response was denial.
Ho, but Trump wishes it was!
This is the real world, my friend. China is not the only dictatorship, and the US has founded funded and by other means supported dictatorships when it suits. Moreso than China. The US has interfered in the domestic affairs of countries way more than China.
It's simply that China is the current favoured enemy.
Yes, and if you want to look objectively to inherent danger, I'd say the risk lies with America. It's not the ones on the up that are necessarily the danger, it's also sometimes the ones on the way out ...Incidentally, the US is no longer the strongest economy .. that would be China
America has had its day. It's a nation in decline, but I do not see them going 'gently into that good night' (to paraphrase Dylan Thomas).
All China has to do is wait. America weakens by the moment, there is no need for China to be aggressive, certainly not militant. It will come to China anyway, the way it once came to America.
All China wants, as the strongest economy, is the respect that position deserves. The problem is that position is one America assumes is hers by right, there's your problem. That, and the risk of a narcissist in power thinking if he can't have it, no-one can ...
Trump has declared he's done more for civil rights and the black community in America than anyone, other than, perhaps, Abraham Lincoln. He's done more for the economy than any president ever. He's done bigger and better than any president ... but he cannot claim to be a war leader. He is not the biggest nor the best war leader the US ever had, he's not in their league, and I wonder if that's on his bucket list?
Any meanwhile, India stands in the wings ...