Refutation of The Pauline Conspiracy, take two

Thomas

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My first draft was almost as long-winded as the text – Chapter One – under review, so I thought I'd trim it back to the bare essentials. Do shout if anything needs expanding.

So the text is here: The Pauline Conspiracy Text quotes in blue.

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Before we begin to evaluate Paul’s character as it is brought to us by Luke’s, The Acts Of The Apostles, and his own New Testament letters, we should understand his origination and his basic genealogy. Parentage is extremely important to us, for Paul held Roman Citizenship as well as being a Jew by birth, and a Hellenist by theological determination.
OK, so here we have three statements regarding Paul. The first two, his Roman citizenship and his Jewish birthright are not disputed. The third: 'a Hellenist by theological determination' is really somewhat vague, and needs to be explained, and then the evidence presented to support the claim. I'm assuming that this is the core of the thesis.

Paul was a dispersion Jew, not a Palestinian Jew as were Jesus and the disciples. It is important that we understand this, for Paul’s loyalties and practices as a Jew, were far different than the Christ and his Apostles.
Well that definitely needs explaining.

Paul was a Hellenist or Diaspora Jew...
OK. This 'Hellenist' thing needs to be dealt with. Under Alexander the Great, the whole Middle East was Hellenised. Then the Romans took over, and it was Romanised. When a Greek gymnasium was introduced into Jerusalem, it was installed by a Jewish High Priest. And other priests soon engaged in wrestling matches in the palaestra. The Septuagint is a product of Hellenism. Hellenism simply means the Jews adopted elements of Greek culture. It does not mean Jews of the Diaspora were any less orthodox or observant of the requirements of their religion. To infer a Diaspora Jew is different to a Palestinian Judaism is a suspicious claim, especially when the Hellenist influence within Jerusalem and Judea is indisputable.

It is in this city (Jerusalem) that we first meet the chief character, and subject, of this thesis (Paul). It is a time of radical movements within the infant church, sparked by revolutionary figures of which Stephen seems to have been the most outspoken.
What about Peter? James? How is Stephen 'revolutionary'? Doesn't say ...

He (Stephen) was a Hellenist, and obviously held to a philosophy that caused great concern to the Synagogue and the leaders of the new Christian religion.
And yet it seems that Stephen outraged the Hellenists! "Now there arose some of that which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them that were of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen." (Acts 6:9). It was they, the Hellenists, who submitted a false testimony to the Sanhedrin regarding Stephens 'blasphemy' that led to his martyrdom. (cf Acts 6:9–14).

Quite what the philosophy was that so troubled 'the leaders of the new Christian religion', I have no idea, and the author does not say.

The Greek mind, that same Greek mind which had dared to regard its philosophy in a state as high as that of God’s word as given in the Holy Scriptures, now decried the Jewish religion and the Temple.
This is it, his thesis baldly stated.

The rest of Chapter One is effectively a sideshow, as it does not address the central issues. It's largely hyperbole and histrionics to undermine the reputation of Paul.
 
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Nor does any of the rest, from what I can gather ... smoke and insinuation, no reference to any Pauline scholarship.
 
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Ok. Well, that really IS boiling it down, lol. So that's the Introduction and Chapter One out of the way?

IMO Garaffa's 'Pauline Conspiracy' is very long and padded and repetitive, and could indeed be boiled down to much shorter length.

Awaiting opinions from the others here? And looking forward to more from @Thomas?
 
Nor does any of the rest, from what I can gather ... smoke and insinuation, no reference to any Pauline scholarship.
Missed this post. So ... Where does it go from here then?
 
SUMMATION

We must note that it takes no long winded dissertation to discuss the issues Paul has brought up in his theology, unless one wishes to entangle themselves in endless debate over unresolved, philosophical trivia.

I wish the author had read his own words.

Countless books have been written on the epistles by those far more worthy than this student. The message of love, compassion, and salvation portrayed by his genius have been autobiographed, quoted, copied, and sermonized throughout the ages.
And yet he seems to have gleaned nothing from them.

This student would underline that which has already been said. In his writing, his poetic movement, and literary abilities, Paul was a genius. His command of words was overwhelming, complex yet moving.

His philosophical reasoning was exemplary, mentally he was agile and able to formulate his religious suppositions with courage. And yet, in the end, the complexity and the nature of his theological meandering was too much even for him.
Was it, or perhaps, it was too much for you?

But there is one thing in which he excelled beyond this that few have taken into consideration.
And now not only has Paul deviated from the mission of Christ, he's laid a whole network of communications which actively undermines the orthodox message and asserts his own ...

What Paul did was to establish one of the most efficient and well regulated organizations known to man. And every member of his ‘personal’ staff was loyal to a fault. They were not few in number even though most are never named. And if certain pressure was necessary to bring a congregation into line, he had the organization to accomplish it.
This rest is a fantasy ...
 
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@Thomas @Ahanu @juantoo3
@muhammad_isa etc:

The point is if it's not really worthy of any scholarly refutation, does it belong on the Homepage at all?

Those articles selected 15+years ago are supposed to be a shop window for the forums, but I personally find (most of) them extremely biased, to the point of being embarrassing.

Is there anything there really worth keeping?

Things have changed and moved on at IO. How much of that old Homepage stuff should really just go to trash?

We can keep that Articles section on the homepage, but scrap the ancient guff and replace it with decent new articles, as they come in?
 
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They don't come close to meeting standards and I think we should knock them on the head
 
@Thomas @Ahanu @juantoo3
@muhammad_isa etc:

The point is if it's not really worthy of any scholarly refutation, does it belong on the Homepage at all?

Those articles selected 15+years ago by a rather mockingly anti-thiest Brian are supposed to be a shop window for the forums, but I personally find (most of) them extremely biased, to the point of being embarrassing.

Is there anything there really worth keeping?

Things have changed and moved on at IO. How much of that old Homepage stuff should really just go to trash?

We can keep that Articles section on the homepage, but scrap the ancient guff and replace it with decent new articles, as they come in?
I've skipped to some of the translations in a pinch being lazy. Tilting at Windmills between Bobx and Bananabrain is a classic, that I would save among everything else and highly recommend for insight into Orthodox Judaism. I would probably keep the Christian Apocrypha stuff, and anything similar for other faiths on principle.

As far as news articles and such, I don't think they've changed since I found this place 15 years ago, so yeah, those should be updated.
 
Thomas said:
OK, so here we have three statements regarding Paul. The first two, his Roman citizenship and his Jewish birthright are not disputed. The third: 'a Hellenist by theological determination' is really somewhat vague, and needs to be explained, and then the evidence presented to support the claim. I'm assuming that this is the core of the thesis.
No time to delve deep, waiting on a phone call to rush out.

I had this discussion with Bananabrain. Consider the Septuagint was a *Jewish* Bible (Old Testament only, predating Christianity) written in Greek. That should be sufficient evidence to demonstrate that there was Greco-Roman influence throughout that area, including all around Palestine. I can grant cultural resistance to such influence inside the borders of Israel, but being under Roman occupational rule it wasn't exempt from it. Indeed, that was a lot of the political conflict between those in Jewish leadership who wanted "Pax Romana" (and usually profited nicely from it) and those who wanted to retain some vestige of independence from the same. Jesus was born into a political powder keg even discounting religion.

To clarify, I don't think Paul was "exclusively" Hellenist in his thinking, but no religious scholar of Paul's standing (he was no lightweight even prior to the incident on the Road to Damascus) could be immune to Hellenist influence.
 
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Overall, what points of history Victor brought up that I saw, I could not readily dismiss. That doesn't make his summary or conclusion correct, and that was ever my argument. This is such a fuzzy debate to begin with, because there are elements of science (history, anthropology, cultural sociology) and religion, and since the two overlapping magisteria tend to talk past each other it can be difficult to get a cogent discussion.
 
I've skipped to some of the translations in a pinch being lazy. Tilting at Windmills between Bobx and Bananabrain is a classic, that I would save among everything else and highly recommend for insight into Orthodox Judaism. I would probably keep the Christian Apocrypha stuff, and anything similar for other faiths on principle.

As far as news articles and such, I don't think they've changed since I found this place 15 years ago, so yeah, those should be updated.
I specifically mean the "Interfaith Library" Articles section?
Should the Pauline conspiracy article be removed altogether?

The Apocrypha section is very good. IMO a world-class online resource.
 
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To clarify, I don't think Paul was "exclusively" Hellenist in his thinking, but no religious scholar of Paul's standing (he was no lightweight even prior to the incident on the Road to Damascus) could be immune to Hellenist influence.
Quite. I think it was the insinuation that Hellenist meant heterodox at the very least, and of course his 'Greek mind' comment was really over the top.

The Hebrew|Hellene dialogue is interesting, both sides drawing allusions to Plato and Moses, for example. Also some of the apocryphal literature in the Septuagint that the Jews rejected were retreads or reworks of Greek myths, so yes indeed.
 
Will anyone object if The Pauline Conspiracy article is removed from the homepage?

It is openly presented in the HTML title as one-sided 'prosecution'

HREF="http://www.interfaith.org/articles/pauline-conspiracy/" title="a fully comprehensive prosecution of saul of tarsus - namely that he usurped the Jerusalem Church, and Christianity with it.">

Even the use of the word 'conspiracy' in the headline is biased and misleading, and as the whole thesis is far too long and imprecise to merit a detailed refutation/defence, I think it should go?
 
Will anyone object if The Pauline Conspiracy article is removed from the homepage?

It is openly presented in the HTML title as one-sided 'prosecution'

HREF="http://www.interfaith.org/articles/pauline-conspiracy/" title="a fully comprehensive prosecution of saul of tarsus - namely that he usurped the Jerusalem Church, and Christianity with it.">

Even the use of the word 'conspiracy' in the headline is biased and misleading, and as the whole thesis is far too long and imprecise to merit a detailed refutation/defence, I think it should go?
In the end it is your decision. Of all of the "scholarly thesis" hosted (apart from Windmills), that is the only one that ever attracted commentators on the boards. I wouldn't feel right if the rebuttal existed and not the thesis being rebutted, it would be equally lop-sided in the other direction and now with Mr Garaffa no longer with us it would be impossible for him to respond.

Those are the only two theses I've even looked at, I don't know that I've seen reference on the boards to any others. There may be value hidden among the others, but time is precious and I never got to them.
 
In the end it is your decision. Of all of the "scholarly thesis" hosted (apart from Windmills), that is the only one that ever attracted commentators on the boards. I wouldn't feel right if the rebuttal existed and not the thesis being rebutted, it would be equally lop-sided in the other direction and now with Mr Garaffa no longer with us it would be impossible for him to respond.

Those are the only two theses I've even looked at, I don't know that I've seen reference on the boards to any others. There may be value hidden among the others, but time is precious and I never got to them.
Ok. It would be book burning, I suppose. But would anyone be able put together an essay in defence of Paul, that could be published alongside Mr Garaffa's prosecution, for balance? Balance is important for the integrity of the IO Homepage, don't you think? It could be titled: In Defence of Paul -- a Refutation of the Pauline Conspiracy.

It might not have to address Garaffa's thesis directly, point by point?
 
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Anyway I'll shut up about it now
 
Ok. It would be book burning, I suppose. But would anyone be able put together an essay in defence of Paul, that could be published alongside Mr Garaffa's prosecution, for balance?

Most of the articles seem to be of the same style and/or author.
I suggest that people should write some more appropriate "articles" .. including perhaps, the role of St. Paul ..
Update rather than removal seems a safer option.

When there are too many articles to fit in the menu, we can decide which ones to remove then :)
 
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Ok. It would be book burning, I suppose. But would anyone be able put together an essay in defence of Paul, that could be published alongside Mr Garaffa's prosecution, for balance? Balance is important for the integrity of the IO Homepage, don't you think? It could be titled: In Defence of Paul -- a Refutation of the Pauline Conspiracy.

It might not have to address Garaffa's thesis directly, point by point?
Every scholar will have his or her own writing style, and style of presentation. If it was a simple matter of "attracting viewers" so to speak, a point by point rebuttal would probably come across about as dry as the original and would be the last method I would personally use. I have to admit, it is a tough read, and why after the first chapter I skipped to the summary. Not saying point by point can't be done, but whether it would be a worthwhile undertaking is another matter.

I am familiar in a general sense with a lot of the scholarship he references, at least between what I did read and my conversation with him. I've bumped into a lot of the same kind of material over the years. So it isn't without merit. But it also isn't as simple as 1-2-3 this is the answer, there is a LOT of nuance that gets skimmed over or dismissed, typical abuse of Occam's Razor by scholarship, in my opinion.
 
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