'An Affair On Golgotha' -- a refutation

I'm not "rubbishing it" ..
I would trust the testimony of Jesus' disciples. I'm very wary of embracing a creed of somebody who appears to contradict their view. As I say .. we need to distinguish between historical fact and the personal opinions that are embedded in the gospels by their authors.
..particularly John!
But the task is impossible, not for lack of want. Corroborating material is scarce. People have been studying this, deeply, for centuries. Either you pick it apart until it is meaningless, or you accept that it is a collection of morality teachings. If it were not of G-d, it would have come to naught.

The Bible isn't a history book, and to think it should be is to miss the point. Is the Qu'ran historically accurate, corroborated by secular sources? If so, sources please. If not, why not?
 
So it’s not about me trying to prove that my faith is right and yours is wrong. I don’t care..

I care .. I care about what happens to me after I die. I care about whether satan corrupts me in this life and
leads me into temptation .. knowingly or unknowingly. It is my duty to be aware of truth and falsehood.

I still need to know if you have read any of the gospels within recently? Or are you commenting about them second-hand? What I mean is that before entering an in-depth debate about any scripture, I would need to refresh myself by reading its actual content, in context?

I don't read the gospels so often as I read the Qur'an .. I don't need to. If somebody turns away from the Qur'an, they must have a reason. It confirms the truth about Almighty God. It confirms what Jesus believed .. i.e. that God is One and has no partners.

There are over 70 different creeds in Christianity .. as there are in Islam.
Which one is right? God has given us a conscience. We need to decide which is true.
Not just follow something because we are familiar with it .. or it suits us in this world.
Jesus preached the truth. He didn't go on about his resurrection and his saving everybody's sins.

Almighty God will judge between all human beings on the day of judgement, and those that fool themselves,
whoever they may be, will wish that they had not done that. God can forgive sins, but it is not automatic.
We have a part to play. Sincerity is vital.
 
The Bible isn't a history book, and to think it should be is to miss the point..

Semantics .. the Bible is a collection of scrolls with historical importance.
It seems quite clear to me that where Jesus is quoted to having said or done something, it has a good chance of being true.
Where the author makes statements about the nature of God or Jesus, then that is the author's opinion. It's not rocket science!

Is the Qu'ran historically accurate, corroborated by secular sources? If so, sources please. If not, why not?

The Qur'an is not like the Bible .. it is not a collection of scrolls of varying age and different authors.
It was revealed over a few years to one man .. Prophet Muhammad.
It is claimed to be the word of God .. directly, and not inspired by the authors and those that chose the Bible canon etc.

Naturally, those people who do not like what it says, for some reason, will refuse to acknowledge it.
..and yes, there are encyclopedias containg 10's of 1000's of narrations from Muhammad's disciples
that "corroborate" it.
 
"Claimed" to be the word of G-d...just like the Bible.

And no secular corroboration outside of Islam...hmmm, what does that tell us?

Absolutely no pot calling the kettle black around here...just move along and pretend you didn't see anything...
 
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I don't read the gospels so often as I read the Qur'an .. I don't need to. If somebody turns away from the Qur'an, they must have a reason. It confirms the truth about Almighty God.
There are people who live in Plymouth who support the local football team, who insist that Plymouth is the best town in the world – although they rarely leave except to away football matches where they enjoy a scrap with the opposing fans. They haven’t been anywhere else in the world.

I do read the Bible -- I try to read it right through every few years -- and of course there are references to it in Catholic church services which I sometimes attend -- virtually nowadays, of course. I also benefit from reference to The Bhagavad Gita and to the I Ching. They are valid scriptures. Buddhist writings are enlightening too. Kaballah too. I don't feel guilty for reading other than Christian scriptures, and it's certainly not forbidden to do so.

I do read the Quran in English a bit, and there is transcendent stuff in it, but IMO there is also too much condemnation of infidels and description of all the horrible things that will happen to them. I certainly haven’t enough knowledge of the Quran to post arguments about it. That’s the point I’m making? I don't know it well enough.

There is far more to the NT than arguing about the nuts and bolts of it, imo. Sacra Scriptura (of any religion) should be read with an open mind, to hear what God is saying to the ‘me’ as an individual. Sometimes it's possible to open the Bible and just read the line upon which my eye falls, and think: Oh yes!

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3:5-7

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Micah 6:8

So …
 
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And no secular corroboration outside of Islam..

What does that even mean?
"non-religious evidence of a religion being true" is a meaningless contradiction, imo.
We have historical evidence on the life of Prophet Muhammad. Yes, historians can dispute various events or the intentions of the various people involved .. but that can be said about ANY historical event.
 
I also benefit from reference to The Bhagavad Gita and to the I Ching. They are valid scriptures. Buddhist writings are enlightening too. I don't feel guilty for reading other than Christian scriptures, and it's certainly not forbidden to do so..

Nobody is saying that it is forbidden to read and educate one's self..
..but to believe all books or writings are equally valid is a fool's creed.

I do read the Quran in English a bit, and there is transcendent stuff in it, but IMO there is also too much condemnation of infidels and description of all the horrible things that will happen to them..

Yes, as I have said before, I'm from a protestant background and on first discovering the Qur'an, dismissed it with similar feelings.
i.e. God is portrayed as vindictive etc.

However, I eventually realised that the concept of God is much more complex than imagining Him as a person who does things.
Divine justice is about reality .. not the whims of 'a personal god', as people often think about Jews & the OT.

There are infidels .. and then there are infidels :)
The Qur'an refers to people like Hitler and those that follow him .. careless believers are also in danger.
The descriptions of hell serve to show us how our behaviour has serious consequences. I'm not sure what type of language you think could warn us so effectively. It seems to me like the difference between a flogging and tapping a hand with a ruler.
A person in mental anguish really is "burning" !

There is far more to the NT than arguing about the nuts and bolts of it, imo. Sacra Scriptura (of any religion) should be read with an open mind, to hear what God is saying to the ‘me’ as an individual. Sometimes it's possible to open the Bible and just read the line upon which my eye falls, and think: Oh yes!

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3:5-7

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Micah 6:8

So …

To imagine that one can read something from a book without contemplating its source [ I'm not necessarily referring to the Torah or Psalms or NT ] and be rightly guided is somewhat delusional.

As we spiritually grow and become mature adults, we have to be discerning. I'm sure you would agree :)

It is certainly not a good idea to separate ourselves from a congregation. The wolf attacks the lone sheep. That does not mean that we have to embrace a creed. A creed is a personal thing.
Blindly following sectarian dogma or making compromises with "the truth" only causes loss, and can even result in one misleading others.
 
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https://www.interfaith.org/articles/golgotha/

So much ... and so little substance.

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And there is much to examine ...

Now ... the moment has come for the truth to be revealed...

Before we face the gauntlet there are certain facts that must be understood...

Again, the author of this screed is sore in need of an editor to trim out the hyperbole and the histrionics ... what he signally fails to do is reveal anything with any substance or explain anything with any clarity.

To even consider the only other option, that Jesus denies that he is the Christ, would be an incredible stroke against the very doctrines of Christianity. Throughout Mark, Jesus is emphatic in telling the disciples not to tell this to anyone. The messianic secret ...

The 'Messianic secret' was put forward by the German Lutheran theologian Wilhelm Wrede in 1901, that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah and that Mark (and the rest of the New Testament authors) sensationalized Him and made Him into the Messiah. Wrede’s theory enjoyed some popularity during the 1920s but faded soon thereafter. Subsequent scholarship raised insurmountable problems that showed Wrede’s hypothesis was insufficient and today is regarded as indefensible. In short, the 'Messianic secret' was a failed theory long before the author wrote his thesis.

If Jesus did not say it, how dare men use this ‘sacred’ vehicle to demand that he did when they admit to the contrary? In the same manner, they have used God’s Holy Scriptures to advance their own doctrines and traditions throughout history.
But, on the other hand, if Jesus did say it, then the argument is void. As no argument is presented, this is void.

To prove the newest of upheavals, The Gospel According To John, has been restored and placed at its theological head. It is being used as the basis for the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is God.
By whom, he does not say. As I understand it, the whole thrust of the New Testament claims that Jesus is God.

We are told that it was authored by John, the disciple. Arguments against its authority are, (1) John would have been of extraordinary old age...
Wrong. Contemporary scholarship suggests the base-layer of John was probably contemporary with Mark and Paul. It seems the scribe was aware of Mark (or his source materials) but still might be prior to both. Certainly, he was unaware of Matthew and Luke.

(2) as a Galilean Jew of the orthodoxy; the text exhibits a definite, anti-Semitic nature...
This view is now regarded as out-dated, with the emergence of later archaeology and scholarship, especially with reference to Hebrew scholars – happily ignored up until the latter half of the last century. What was once deemed anti-semitic is now seen as tensions within the broader Jewish community. John's whole premise is couched in terms of a Jew preaching to the Jews.

(3) the Church would be permitting a Gnostic text into their doctrine...
The claim that the Prologue and flavour of John was Gnostic has been demonstrated false by a greater understanding of Jewish mystical currents in Second Temple Era, and indeed by the Dead Sea Scrolls, as John is notably closer to the Qumran documents – the use of 'light' and 'dark' as motifs, for example.

(4) the church’s permissiveness would allow the use, and manipulation, of a five hundred year old text that originally appeared as Plato’s, Ode To Wisdom ...
It would have helped if the writer had offered a reference so that readers could judge for themselves. I have no idea what he's talking about here. Google was no help either.

(5) the admission of a document purported to be genuine to Jesus’ words and actions that appear almost one hundred and seventy years after the fact.
What, the Gospel of John? The latest it can be is 125AD, so at the outside less than a hundred years. As stated above, it's possible the origin of the gospel was within 20 years.

Explicit explanation of the argument are as follows. The Interpreter’s Bible: Volume 7; Page 887, notes that in this Gospel, “…where intense hatred of the Jews is frequently given expression…” gives voice to point (2).
And scholarship subsequent to the 1950s has shown this to be a misunderstanding.

The preface of the Gospel, “In the beginning was the word…” (John 1:1) is well known to have originally been an ode to Wisdom created by Greek philosophers five hundred years before an unknown evangelist adapted it for use in the Gospel, which dates approximately one hundred seventy years after the fact.
Entirely wrong. Again, no supporting reference or evidence.

The Interpreter’s Bible, agrees that the word, Logos, is borrowed from the original where it represented divine reason. Philo of Alexandria uses this word more than thirteen hundred times in his expositions of the Old Testament. (See: I.B.: Volume 7; Page 442).
John’s use of the term "Logos" (1:1-2; most frequently rendered "Word" in modern English translations) drew much attention. The writer seems to insist it reveals his Gnostic leanings (cf Bultmann, The Gospel of John. 1971).

Commentaries suggest the term is deeply rooted in Old Testament thought (e.g. Genesis 1, Proverbs 8). Further, the role of the Johannine Logos parallels personified Wisdom in a number of traditions within Judaism (e.g. Sirach 24). Sirach's Wisdom and John's Logos cannot simply be identified with each other, since the former is a creation of God (Sirach 1:9) whereas John holds the Logos as pre-existent and Divine. John's use of such language in his setting could scarcely avoid associations with Hellenistic thought ("Logos" played a key role in Stoic thought and in Philo).

It may well be that the Greek world provided the main source for its interpretation. C. H. Dodd argued that John’s adoption of the term deliberately reflects the ambiguity of the word in Judaism, employing a Greek philosophical term that captures both the immanent and the transcendent implications, all within a decidedly Christian framework (C. H. Dodd, The Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel Cambridge University Press, 1953). Other scholars develop Old Testament and Wisdom backgrounds.

They argue, moreover, that while the Hellenistic connotations are inevitable and useful for drawing the attention of a wide range of first-century audiences, these associations are secondary and in some respects incidental, since the Fourth Gospel’s employment of the term turns out to be quite contrary to a Hellenistic worldview, as well as in some ways quite distinct from previous Jewish uses. Leon Morris puts it this way:
"John could scarcely have used the Greek term without arousing in the minds of those who used the Greek language thought of something supremely great in the universe. But though he could not have been unmindful of the association aroused by the term, his thought does not arrive from the Greek background. His Gospel shows little trace of acquaintance with Greek philosophy and even less dependence on it. And the really important thing is that John, in his use of the Logos, is cutting clean across one of the fundamentals of Greek ideas." (In Herman Ridderbos, The Gospel According to John (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987).

Beasley-Murray agrees, and sees Johannine usage as indicative of the Evangelist’s acumen in communicating the Gospel and its distinctive message within the philosophical and cultural context of his time:
"The remarkable feature of this presentation is that it employs categories universally known, possessing universal appeal, which would attract and have attracted alike Jews, Christians, pagans, Hellenists and Orientals in their varied cultures, followers of ancient and modem religions, philosophers and people of humble status who were seekers after God." (George Beasley-Murray, John, World Biblical Commentary, Thomas Nelson, 1999)

A dozen pagan rites, including the most powerful, that of Mythranism, repeat this story over and over again before Christianity ever became a dream in man’s mind.
Mythranism – by which I presume the author means Mithraism – does not repeat the story, it's quite different. Also, Mithraism in Rome borrowed a number of motifs from Christian iconography – there's no evidence elsewhere – and that Christianity is a derivative of Mithraism is a meme that has been shown to be false.

It must be understood, without question, that Christianity today is not the church that Jesus founded, nor is it based on the principles that he taught. What proof do we have? Are Jesus’ own words enough?
Well as you have dismissed the New Testament as a reliable text, and if your thesis is right, then the Church effectively wrote the NT, then we dop not have Jesus' own words, do we? Throughout, the writer wants it both ways, refutiung Scripture when it suits, citing it as authentic when it suits, without apparent rhyme or reason.

Jesus did not choose Paul ...
Yet based on Scripture and Paul's testimony, he did, so where does this come from?

It is Paul who announced the martyred ‘lamb’ ...
Well Paul mentions it once – "For our passover also hath been sacrificed, [even] Christ" (1 Corinthians 5:7). However the theology of the sacrificial lamb is based on John's Gospel: "The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world." (1:29), "And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God." (1:36), and the Lamb is mentioned 29 times in Revelations!

It is Paul who demands that we observe the bloodied sacrament of, Communion, not the Christ, not Peter ...
"Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver, from your vain conversation of the tradition of your fathers: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled, Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but manifested in the last times for you" (1 Peter 18-20).
So, this argument is utter nonsense.

It's a matter of note that Garaffa dismisses Scripture where it suits, and claims its authenticity where it suits, without rhyme or reason.

+++

Regarding the extensive commentary on the Passion-Ascension, I will not dignify it with a response. Smoke and no substance.

+++

Paul’s ministry was assaulted by Jewish Christians known to us as the Judiazers.

As I've demonstrated elsewhere, the writer is largely ignorant of Paul and his ministry.

The Hellenists, especially Stephen, were insistent that the role of Judaism was over and that the religion was dead.
Quite simply wrong.

“To Stephen Israel had been apostate throughout her history; her rejection of Jesus is merely the culmination of a series of misdeeds. Christianity must break with Judaism because the two are incompatible.” (Peake’s Commentary on the Bible: Thomas Nelson & Sons LTD; Page 871 70d)
Again, an ill-informed overstatement. No scholar would support that thesis. sadly I have searched Peake's Commentary but can't find the text he quotes...
Excellent post!

I hope you will not object that the full text of this post has now been added at the bottom of the lengthy Golgotha article, and linked to this thread, so that anyone new who actually reaches the end of the article will be able to access the alternative view?
https://www.interfaith.org/articles/golgotha/
 
..but to believe all books or writings are equally valid is a fool's creed.
Who said that? I didn’t. Do you really believe I attach equal importance to everything written?

However, I eventually realised that the concept of God is much more complex than imagining Him as a person who does things.
The old white beard in the sky? Like Santa Claus. Surely you don’t actually think that’s what I believe?

But God does hear people. God does respond to people. Angels do come.
God does care. God is personal too. Certainly. Definitely.

It's what Christ came to show:
“Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
John 14:19


There are infidels .. and then there are infidels
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The Qur'an refers to people like Hitler and those that follow him .. careless believers are also in danger.

The descriptions of hell serve to show us how our behaviour has serious consequences. I'm not sure what type of language you think could warn us so effectively. It seems to me like the difference between a flogging and tapping a hand with a ruler.

A person in mental anguish really is "burning" !
But it’s not the descriptions of hell I’m talking about. I’m talking about the Qur'an’s almost obsessive focus on infidels and the punishment coming to them. It’s repeated hundreds of times?

To imagine that one can read something from a book without contemplating its source [ I'm not necessarily referring to the Torah or Psalms or NT ] and be rightly guided is somewhat delusional. As we spiritually grow and become mature adults, we have to be discerning. I'm sure you would agree
Yes. Of course an intelligent person takes account of the source. I’m talking about sacred scriptures, not Facebook and Twitter. Again: do I need to be told that? Do you really think I do not consider the source of what I read?

It is certainly not a good idea to separate ourselves from a congregation. The wolf attacks the lone sheep.
Others believe differently. There are monks and hermits. Sometimes the maddening crowd blocks out the still, small voice. There are all sorts of people. Repetitive prayer by rote and adherence to literal scripture is not the way for many people.

That does not mean that we have to embrace a creed. A creed is a personal thing.
Yes. God reaches into every heart in a different way for every soul.

Blindly following sectarian dogma or making compromises with "the truth" only causes loss, and can even result in one misleading others.
That’s the whole issue. Many scriptures, many maps, many roads – but all the same truth in the end. IMO
 
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But God does hear people. God does respond to people.

Yes, of course.
..but how can God respond to somebody who denies truth?


But it’s not the descriptions of hell I’m talking about. I’m talking about the Qur'an’s almost obsessive focus on infidels and the punishment coming to them. It’s repeated hundreds of times?

Hell is not repeated any more than paradise, as far as I'm aware.
Furthermore, there is a lot more contained in the Qur'an than that. Islamic law for example.

Repetitive prayer by rote and adherence to literal scripture is not the way for many people..

Exactly .. we can turn our backs on ritual prayer and the compulsory giving of wealth if that is our wish..
We can choose to practice "I ching" or some other idolatrous activity.
The Lord's prayer cannot be repeated too often. The remembrance of God saves us from satan.


That’s the whole issue. Many scriptures, many maps, many roads – but all the same truth in the end. IMO

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.
Some creeds replace God's guidance / law with their own. That is why the west has become spiritually bankrupt.
Adultery, fornication and so on are "kosher".

That road does NOT lead to the paradise .. in this life OR the next!
 
Yes, of course.
..but how can God respond to somebody who denies truth?
IMO God responds to all sincere searching, and gradually guides the soul to truth. The 'truth' is not an absolute. There is always a higher truth.
That is why the west has become spiritually bankrupt.
Adultery, fornication and so on are "kosher".
There are people who do not believe in God, or follow any scripture. (*) They have that choice. They have to learn by their own road. Secular democracy does not allow the forcing of religious beliefs. It is better than one religion forcing itself upon society as a whole. It's been tried, and ends in murder of people with different beliefs to the official one. Religions can draw people by example, not by coercion.
Exactly .. we can turn our backs on ritual prayer and the compulsory giving of wealth if that is our wish...
The Lord's prayer cannot be repeated too often. The remembrance of God saves us from satan.
Yes. Of course prayer obviously has a value. But it can become a chore. It can just become verbal repetition. I'm not denying prayer, but questioning the value of repetitive ritual prayer? I'm not denying the value of a devout God fearing people who practice prayer and giving. So I apologise if I gave that impression.
"I ching" or some other idolatrous activity.
It's a very profound Taoist cosmology. It does not allow abuse.
Hell is not repeated any more than paradise, as far as I'm aware.
True. But infidels must be destroyed and rooted out? Killed and removed? Certainly a lot of followers interpret it that way?
Furthermore, there is a lot more contained in the Qur'an than that. Islamic law for example.
Never said there wasn't

(*) Does not mean non-believers are all 'spiritually bankrupt', or that all believers are virtuous.
 
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IMO God responds to all sincere searching, and gradually guides the soul to truth..

Yes .. unless a person turns away..

Secular democracy does not allow the forcing of religious beliefs..

The roots of western democracy are in Christianity.
If the majority of people feel that adultery is trivial, that is reflected in its law.

..so basically, many people think that "loving God [or Jesus]" does not entail strict discipline or law.
I know this because my roots are in the C of E, and I can see how it's values are changing as time goes by.

Catholics have the Pope .. he has the responsibility.
Islam should not change. The Qur'an is specific. Men are in charge of women. Adultery is serious etc.

It is better than one religion forcing itself upon society..

It shouln't be necessary to force truth upon people. If they don't want to follow truth, good luck to them!
However, evil is evil .. and if evil is not checked, it will destroy the whole society.
The US is a good example .. despite its secular nature, something is seriously wrong.
A nation who judges by worldly values [ eg. votes for a wealthy business tycoon to lead them ] is morally bankrupt.


..infidels must be destroyed and rooted out? Killed and removed? Certainly a lot of followers interpret it that way?

Come off it .. the OT is no different. You are now taking things out of context.
Yes, G-d / Allah requires us to fight evil .. that is His decree .. He has given mankind power in the earth and
we have our own kings / presidents and so on.
Police and armed forces are part of reality. Let's not pretend we live in a cotton-wool world.
 
The roots of western democracy are in Christianity.
If the majority of people feel that adultery is trivial, that is reflected in its law.
You are quite wrong. The law is secular.

The majority of Christians do not feel adultery is trivial. It is against their belief. But it is their belief, and cannot be forced upon people. Fundamentalists tried to get their way for a while and now the US has reverted back to the secular government that it is supposed to be, inclusive of all beliefs and non-belief, within the law of the land.
Catholics have the Pope .. he has the responsibility.
The Pope rules the Vatican state. People who live there follow its laws. Catholics who live in other lands listen to the Pope on spiritual matters, but the Pope has no secular authority or wish to enforce Catholicism. It didn't end well when it was tried.
Come off it .. the OT is no different. You are now taking things out of context.
Yes, G-d / Allah requires us to fight evil .. that is His decree .. He has given mankind power in the earth and
we have our own kings / presidents and so on.
But the OT eye-for-an-eye is no longer practiced even by those who venerate it, because it is recognised by reasonable people that time moves on, and legal systems evolve from tribal tent-living people as societies.
Police and armed forces are part of reality. Let's not pretend we live in a cotton-wool world.
Police and armed forces are defensive -- or supposed to be. They are not expected or required to go out and force people who don't belong to their own nation and are not subject to the laws of that nation to obey its laws, who do not subscribe to them?

Anyway @muhammad_isa
I really do not have the detailed knowledge to continue discussing your own religion. I respect your beliefs and scripture, although they are not what I follow.
But my input to the particular discussion of Islam should stop at this point.
 
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What does that even mean?
"non-religious evidence of a religion being true" is a meaningless contradiction, imo.
We have historical evidence on the life of Prophet Muhammad. Yes, historians can dispute various events or the intentions of the various people involved .. but that can be said about ANY historical event.
Nice attempt to dodge. You can't have it both ways. The same methods used to dismantle the Jewish and Christian Bible *also* dismantle the Qu'ran.
 
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There is far more to the NT than arguing about the nuts and bolts of it, imo. Sacra Scriptura (of any religion) should be read with an open mind, to hear what God is saying to the ‘me’ as an individual.

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3:5-7

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Micah 6:8
Very well said, and lines up nicely with my own thoughts on the matter.
 
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You are quite wrong. The law is secular.

The majority of Christians do not feel adultery is trivial. It is against their belief. But it is their belief, and cannot be forced upon people..

What? You think that law evolves by magic?
No! It is a reflection of the will of the people.

Take the UK, for example..

59% of people are Christians, 5% are Muslims and 25% have no religion.

So why in a Christian majority country have the people voted that adultery and same-sex-marriage are OK?
It's clear to me that these days, the Christian majority do not have a proper faith.

Fundamentalists tried to get their way for a while and now the US has reverted back to the secular government that it is supposed to be, inclusive of all beliefs and non-belief, within the law of the land.

That's a distortion of the truth .. Trump is good at that!

Catholics who live in other lands listen to the Pope on spiritual matters, but the Pope has no secular authority or wish to enforce Catholicism. It didn't end well when it was tried..

If you are referring to Napoleon, I have very strong views about that .. I'm an Englishman ;)


Police and armed forces are defensive -- or supposed to be. They are not expected or required to go out and force people who don't belong to their own nation and are not subject to the laws of that nation, to obey its laws, who do not subscribe to them?

Clearly, you belong to this modern secular age .. I do NOT.
Anyhow .. what about when Jesus, son of Mary [ the Messiah ] returns to us in the near future?
You think that there will be a "bloodless revolution" that makes him the King of the world and bring in a 1000 years of peace?
Islam and Judaism teach otherwise!
Evil does not evaporate by magic in this world. It requires human effort.
Without Almighty God, we have no chance in eradicating evil. Mankind is weak,
and succumbs to sin.
That is why we need to remember God .. and acknowledge what is a sin.
..cancelling "the law" does quite the opposite. It leads to ignorance & disbelief.
That suits disbelieving empires that follow satan .. they can then impose their own laws.

satan just wishes us to destroy ourselves and become astray like him.
 
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I think you can believe what you want. God is a personal matter, and religions do not have a right to enforce themselves by the sword.
 
Nice attempt to dodge. You can't have it both ways. The same methods used to dismantle the Jewish and Christian Bible *also* dismantle the Qu'ran.

Bring it on .. I'm feeling strong today. 2 onto 1 .. 10 onto 1 .. whatever :)
 
..but to believe all books or writings are equally valid is a fool's creed.
Did, or did not, G-d create ALL humans living?

Divine justice is about reality .. not the whims of 'a personal god', as people often think about Jews & the OT.
There will always be people of any faith walk that have greater and lesser understandings of those teachings. I don't see how you can discriminate in such a manner. I would not personally pretend to know what any given Muslim would think about his or her G-d in relation to the teachings of Islam, all I have to witness is the behaviour and actions of some people, VERY often with government approval, which indicates to me engrained and widespread agreement. That behaviour, witnessed over and over again, with government approval, is very exclusive and discriminatory.

There are infidels .. and then there are infidels :)
Are people that highjack planes and crash into skyscrapers for the sole purpose of murdering as many innocent civilians as possible infidels or martyrs?

The Qur'an refers to people like Hitler and those that follow him .. careless believers are also in danger.
Does the Qur'an also refer to people like Bin Laden and those that follow him?

The descriptions of hell serve to show us how our behaviour has serious consequences. I'm not sure what type of language you think could warn us so effectively. It seems to me like the difference between a flogging and tapping a hand with a ruler.
But a Christian who dwells on this subject is a fundamentalist nut case, right?

To imagine that one can read something from a book without contemplating its source [ I'm not necessarily referring to the Torah or Psalms or NT ] and be rightly guided is somewhat delusional.
How is this ANY different applied to the Qur'an??? A follower / believer will justify their belief by whatever arguments float their boat, ALL morality teachings fall flat when the only method to gauge them is logic. They are not science texts, they are not history texts, they are morality "plays" for lack of a better term, and all of them purport to be from Deity (arguably Buddhism from a learned source). No matter the faith walk, there are those "adepts" who are studied in those texts - not so much in mind as application - that demonstrate the value contained within.

If you dismantle a faith text by logic and science, then you can dismantle any and ALL faith texts by the same methods. That is the argument Atheists often use to justify their position, without taking into consideration the value that lies beyond logic and science.

As we spiritually grow and become mature adults, we have to be discerning. I'm sure you would agree :)
Indeed, I do, daily.

It is certainly not a good idea to separate ourselves from a congregation. The wolf attacks the lone sheep. That does not mean that we have to embrace a creed. A creed is a personal thing.
Blindly following sectarian dogma or making compromises with "the truth" only causes loss, and can even result in one misleading others.
Is this not contradictory? Not good to separate, yet blindly following sectarian dogma causes loss. I am a Lone Sheep, and insist upon it, because this sheep has fangs. I am not immune, I am not special, I am watchful and careful (and prayerful). My path is my path, not yours, and I don't ask you to follow my path, my path may not be suitable for you.

Some people need the comfort of a congregation, I see nothing wrong with that, at least as long as the underlying motive is seeking the Divine. My opinion changes when the underlying motive is power, or some other abuse of the privilege.

Some people need the solace and quiet mind to contemplate their place in the Divine. Surely you do not discount Monks and others who distance themselves (as much as they can) from the cacophony and chaos of life in order to experience perception of the Divine? Maybe this concept is lost on the other group, I don't know, but as one who long ago made the conscious decision to discover the experience on my own, I relate far better with this group, though I can appreciate the other group and realize where their hearts and minds are at in their personal faith walks.
 
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Bring it on .. I'm feeling strong today. 2 onto 1 .. 10 onto 1 .. whatever :)
Martyr syndrome?

The OP was about sacrifice, and how certain groups (specifically Pagans, Atheists and Muslims) want to tie the offering of Jesus to *human* sacrifice in some effort specifically to dismantle Christianity.

Later, the refusal to acknowledge war as human sacrifice, though the evidence is widespread and long standing.

Now we see, following the crumbs to where they lead, how such sacrifice is still very much at the fore.

Do I believe the words, or the actions, of a person or group of people? If the actions contradict the words, which do I believe - what my eyes see happen, or what my ears enchant me to believe?
 
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