'An Affair On Golgotha' -- a refutation

[muhammad_isa]

He returned as the spiritual Christ

That doesn't mean anything .. Jesus ate broiled fish .. ghosts don't need to eat food.
Wounded humans most certainly do.

You haven't even read it and you do not understand the context or complexity. The greatest minds have debated it for two millennia and the greatest painters and artists have dedicated themselves to trying to portray the mysteries of the crucifixion and resurrection..

Of course I have read it. I don't see what it has to do with painters and artists .. theologians, yes of course.

And the real issue is why do you so badly need to?

It is my duty to educate others. Muhammad, peace be with him, was not a liar or madman .. any more than Jesus was a liar or a madman.
You think they can't both be right. I disagree.
..where in the OT does it say that the Messiah would die and be resurrected 3 days later?

 

[RJM]

That doesn't mean anything .. Jesus ate broiled fish .. ghosts don't need to eat food.
Wounded humans most certainly do.

He has conquered death, the Christ doesn't need your understanding or approval, sir.

By the way are you familiar with the bodhisattva yoga concept?

where in the OT does it say that the Messiah would die and be resurrected 3 days later?

Psalm 16:10 is the OT passage commonly referenced here:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption"

There may be others, I don't know.

it is my duty to educate others

I think a person who elects upon himself to do that is it least supposed to put in the work of knowing and understanding the subject matter?

It's like writing a whole lot of stuff about Hamlet withiut even having read it -- much less studied or paid it serious attention -- using wiki study notes. It makes you sound ridiculous.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I think a person who elects upon himself to do that is it least supposed to put in the work of knowing and understanding the subject matter?

Well, I do
Billions of people believe as you do, and billions of people believe as I do.

I don't reject the Bible, but you reject the Qur'an..
..much like the Jews reject Jesus, you reject Muhammad.

Nobody likes change. It causes suspicion and doubt .. I understand that.
Nevertheless, it is important to ascertain the truth about God.
Do you think refusing to acknowledge a Prophet for no good reason is acceptable to God?
I don't.

Now, you may reply with "why don't I accept Mormon prophets?" or such like..
That would be changing the subject, and only serve to cause diversion.
Forget about me. What if God asks you why you reject Muhammad and the Qur'an?
What do you consider Is a valid reason?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The whole point is that Christians do not view Jesus as just another prophet. So any writing that starts with that as an original premise doesn't even get past the first base as far as Christians are concerned.

To me the Kitab-i-Iqan explains how Jesus as Christ is more than a man, that Jesus as Christ was indeed the 'Self of God' amongst us, all we can ever know of God is through Christ.

I see the Clouds Christ return upon are spiritual. Our doctrines that form a picture of who we think God should be, become the clouds that prevent us from recognising Christ, whenever God gives us Christ visible in a human form.

Christ is more than flesh. When we read what Jesus keeps telling us about flesh, I do wonder why we come so attached to it.

It is a big topic. I am happy do discuss it from different frames of reference. For a Baha'i there is One God and only One path to God and that is through Christ 'Annointed One'.

That is how Jesus is the First and Last, as Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

don't reject the Bible, but you reject the Qur'an..
..much like the Jews reject Jesus, you reject Muhammad.

That is where you're wrong. I do not reject or rubbish your religion. I don't care: you can think and believe what you want. I'm quite happy to let you get on with it and I don't know enough about it to commentate. Your religion doesn't threaten me. Get on with it, live your life leave me alone.

Why do you keep on attacking me for what I believe, in spite of you don't really understand or know anything about it -- why do you keep writing a whole lot of stuff about something you don't understand and actually know nothing about?

You have no respect, my friend.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That doesn't mean anything .. Jesus ate broiled fish .. ghosts don't need to eat food.
Wounded humans most certainly do.

Both the Bible and the Quran are given to guide us in the Spirit.

When we discuss the spiritual aspect of life we need to use material words.

We have to go beyond the literal into the spiritual meanings of those stories.

Big topic but there are many traditions in Islam about the meanings of words, like one outward meaning and 70 hidden spiritual meanings. You would be aware of this, I would think?

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

To me the Kitab-i-Iqan explains how Jesus as Christ is more than a man..

All God's messengers were "more than men"
..yet none of them were God .. or God incarnate .. that is an unfounded belief which Jews and Muslims
know to be wrong with 100% confidence.

Jesus himself, pronounced the Shima [ the first commandment ]. It is the main pillar of faith.
ANY belief that implies otherwise is NOT acceptable. God is wise. He knows that mankind will
go astray if he "came as a man".
A man cannot claim to be God. It is sheer nonsense ..

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why do you keep on attacking me for what I believe..

Is that it how it feels? That I'm attacking you?
No .. I'm just stating my opinion.
I don't feel that you are attacking me because of what I believe.
It is a discourse.

You have no respect, my friend.

Oh .. my intention is not to offend.
On the contrary .. my intention is only to educate.
Clearly, you think that I know nothing about the subject. That is your opinion.
I've been a believer in God all my life, and theology is my main interest in life.

It seems that you are upset about some theological issue.
Almighty God knows what is in your heart and my heart. Isn't that enough?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

All God's messengers were "more than men"
..yet none of them were God .. or God incarnate .. that is an unfounded belief which Jews and Muslims
know to be wrong with 100% confidence

A Baha'i also knows the Messengers are not God.

That is explained in the Bible, the Quran and the Baha'i Writings which include the Kitab-i-Iqan.

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

On the contrary .. my intention is only to educate.

But you lack even a reasonable basic knowledge of the subject? I certainly don't try educate you about Islam? What gives you authority and wisdom to educate me about Christianity, when you haven't even read the books? I have not much respect for your educational teaching I'm afraid ...

seems that you are upset about some theological issue.

Actually no. I'm upset that someone with no knowledge of my scripture should see to educate me about it.

Almighty God knows what is in your heart and my heart. Isn't that enough?

Not when you keep rubbishing my own scripture that you haven't even read, and trying to force your own upon me, my friend.

Suggestion: read the gospels first and then start trying to educate ...

 

[RJM]

Jesus himself, pronounced the Shima [ the first commandment ]. It is the main pillar of faith.
ANY belief that implies otherwise is NOT acceptable.

He said a lot of stuff, in context, and he said a lot other stuff, in context -- how can you keep speaking so authoritively about stuff you've never even READ? Don't you get it @muhammad_isa?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have not much respect for your educational teaching I'm afraid ...

OK

"And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”
- Mark 4 -

 

[RJM]

OK

"And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”
- Mark 4 -

So? Was he talking about Islam?
Or was he talking about Buddhism? Or Scientology perhaps?

Clearly, you think that I know nothing about the subject. That is your opinion.

Everything you say shows has a complete lack of understanding about the subject.

 

[RJM]

To me the Kitab-i-Iqan explains how Jesus as Christ is more than a man, that Jesus as Christ was indeed the 'Self of God' amongst us, all we can ever know of God is through Christ.

I see the Clouds Christ return upon are spiritual. Our doctrines that form a picture of who we think God should be, become the clouds that prevent us from recognising Christ, whenever God gives us Christ visible in a human form.

Christ is more than flesh. When we read what Jesus keeps telling us about flesh, I do wonder why we come so attached to it.

It is a big topic. I am happy do discuss it from different frames of reference. For a Baha'i there is One God and only One path to God and that is through Christ 'Annointed One'.

That is how Jesus is the First and Last, as Christ.

Regards Tony

Thank you Tony
Beautifully expressed


The eternal Christ is the bridge between Man and God: incarnate once in time in the life of Jesus -- of virgin birth, announced by John the Baptist, crucified and resurrected -- without sin fully divine and fully human, both.

He is Emmanuel: God with us.

Other religions can disagree. But it is not right for anyone (not you) to come in and start tramping all over the mysteries -- which the wisest minds have debated for centuries and which libraries are filled with books about -- without first at least having a reasonable working understanding of the scriptures.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Thank you Tony
Beautifully expressed


The eternal Christ is the bridge between Man and God: incarnate once in time in the life of Jesus -- of virgin birth, announced by John the Baptist, crucified and resurrected -- without sin fully divine and fully human, both.

He is Emmanuel: God with us.

Other religions can disagree. But it is not right for anyone (not you) to come in and start tramping all over the mysteries -- which the wisest minds have debated for centuries and which libraries are filled with books about -- without first at least having a reasonable working understanding of the scriptures.

The mystery of who was Jesus the Christ has been indeed debated for many centuries and also been the cause of many divisions.

I personally see we have to consider new frames of references. Why? Because I personally think it is clear that there is only One God.

I am not sure why we have not found the ability to turn the other cheek.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I personally think it is clear that there is only One God.

Who responds to every sincere human soul, any time, any place, any faith

 

[muhammad_isa]

So? Was he talking about Islam?
Or was he talking about Buddhism? Or Scientology perhaps?

No .. He was talking about the reception of religious knowledge.
You only want to contemplate/discuss your own preconceived ideas.

I think we both agree that Jesus, son of Mary, had Divine authority. Most of the Jews didn't want to know.
They wanted to continue with their OWN version of "the truth".

That's how you appear to me. You'd rather not discuss anybody else's views .. you just want to stick to your own philosophy.

Not when you keep rubbishing my own scripture that you haven't even read, and trying to force your own upon me..

Nobody is forcing anybody to believe anything. I can see why you want to get rid of the articles. You don't like what they say, despite the fact that many Biblical scholars agree with much of it.
You want to stick to tradition, and ignore anything else.

He is Emmanuel: God with us.

Yes .. Jesus is the Messiah / Emmanuel / the Christ / the Son of God .. I sincerely agree.
But, like many other Christians, I have good reason to believe Jesus is NOT God.
Only God is God.

I personally think it is clear that there is only One God.

Who responds to every sincere human soul, any time, any place, any faith

Agreed upon!
..and Almighty God is aware of who is sincere and who is not.
He knows what we might be hiding in our hearts. He knows who acknowledges truth and who turns away from it.

 

[RJM]

No .. He was talking about the reception of religious knowledge.

He was talking about the reception of his own teachings at the time.

You only want to contemplate/discuss your own preconceived ideas.

In order to have a discussion, you require me to throw out the crucifixion and resurrection, because your scripture says they did not happen?

I think we both agree that Jesus, son of Mary, had Divine authority

Jesus son of Mary by virgin birth had a bit more than that. He was not just a minister but the Son of the Father.

He was the incarnation in time of The eternal Christ -- as the bridge between Man and God: incarnate once in time in the life of Jesus -- of virgin birth, announced by John the Baptist, crucified and resurrected -- without sin fully divine and fully human, both. Your scripture says that cannot be.

And before you start quibbling about what 'Christ' meant in Greek at the time, the above is the meaning it has acquired now, for his followers.

That's how you appear to me. You'd rather not discuss anybody else's views .. you just want to stick to your own philosophy.

Where your scripture says one thing and my scripture says the opposite, I choose my own scripture.

Nobody is forcing anybody to believe anything.

Well, thanks ...

I can see why you want to get rid of the articles. You don't like what they say, despite the fact that many Biblical scholars agree with much of it.

I wanted to get rid of some of them because they are unedited and padded and repetitive and very badly written -- nine times longer than they need to be -- and rely on selective quotations to support themselves, ignoring the passages that do not support them. IMO they are a disgrace to the quality of our site -- some of them are.

However as you and others have suggested, it is probably better to keep them and publish a few good, crisp, properly researched and edited articles in rebuttal and to provide a balance, so that people can weigh both sides and decide for themselves.

You want to stick to tradition, and ignore anything else.

You mean I have to convert to your religion

Yes .. Jesus is the Messiah / Emmanuel / the Christ / the Son of God .. I sincerely agree.

Right

But, like many other Christians, I have good reason to believe Jesus is NOT God.
Only God is God.

It's complicated. Christian belief has mysteries, which you come at like a bull in a china shop. The Christ is the bridge between God and man: fully God and fully human.

..and Almighty God is aware of who is sincere and who is not.
He knows what we might be hiding in our hearts.

Yes

He knows who acknowledges truth and who turns away from it.

But you insist your truth is the only truth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Where your scripture says one thing and my scripture says the opposite, I choose my own scripture..

You're making it personal.
Scriptures don't "belong" to anybody.

I was brought up with the Bible, and discovered the Qur'an in my 20's.
You say that you have little knowledge of the Qur'an..

I'm not surprised. You clearly reject it because it goes against your preconceived ideas.

IMO they are a disgrace to the quality of our site -- some of them are..

I disagree .. they are well laid out and provide references.
I agree that they are somewhat repetitive .. nevertheless, they include important truths which you ignore.

You mean I have to convert to your religion..

You are free to do whatever you like. If you want to ignore scholarly articles and valid criticism in order to
keep your preconceived ideas, that is between you and God.

Yes, but it's complicated. Christian belief has mysteries..

Fine .. if that's what you want to lay down as the foundation of your belief. One day, the "mysteries" will become clear.
It makes no sense to me. I don't believe that God seeks to confuse us. On the contrary, He has made it very clear.
One God means One God! I don't find that complicated.

 

[RJM]

You say that you have little knowledge of the Qur'an..

Correct. I have little knowledge of lots of things, for which reason I don't comment upon

I'm not surprised. You clearly reject it because it goes against your preconceived ideas.

I don't reject it. I entirely do not reject your right to believe what you want to. However it is your belief system. And from what you have said, it goes against my own in many, many ways

I agree that they are somewhat repetitive

Understatement of the year

they include important truths which you ignore.

They include opinions -- to anyone willing to wade through all the gumph and foliage -- and there are alternative opinions

It makes no sense to me.

It doesn't have to. It's subtle and anyway it doesn't require your consent