Who created God?

[RJM]

I wouldn't touch a hair on the head of dogma, exoterism. Just leave it in place, it's there for a reason. But there comes a time when it will just no longer do. The bird's wanting out of the cage, the beast strains at the bars of it's prison. The prisons nourished for a long time, they did they're job, but those wild ones need bigger spaces now.

@stranger
Bingo!

The shell of the nut preserves the fruit of truth within. Problem is chewing on the old wood shell, instead of cracking it to get the sweetness of the fruit. The map is not the territory. There will always be the keepers of the flame, who preserve the outer dogma. They are needed. The scripture and the ritual is necessary to keeps the form intact, down through the centuries -- else governments and rulers would be free to fix the words to make the truth suit themselves, imo

 

[stranger]

But it's still there, all you have to do is look through the veils with the eyes of the spirit, listen with the ears of the spirit. Hence "ears to hear, eyes to see".

 

[stranger]

The shell of the nut preserves the fruit of truth within. Problem is chewing on the old wood shell, instead of cracking it to get the sweetness of the fruit. There will always be the keepers of the flame, who preserve the outer dogma. They are needed. The scripture and the ritual is necessary to keeps the form intact, down through the centuries -- else governments and rulers would be free to fix the words to make the truth suit themselves, imo

You are right, RJM, but there comes a time when we are called away and we have to leave the keeping of the flame into capable hands, no longer ours because we have to take a step up on the ladder. We are afraid but know we need to go at the same time. All I am saying is let go of our attachments. There are capable ones to replace us.

 

[stranger]

That's why I can't do politics and causes anymore, just can't do it.

 

[stranger]

Only when we feel the calling to go, however, nothing premature. No hurry.

 

[RJM]

You are right, RJM, but there comes a time when we are called away and we have to leave the keeping of the flame into capable hands, no longer ours because we have to take a step up on the ladder. We are afraid but know we need to go at the same time. All I am saying is let go of our attachments. There are capable ones to replace us.

Yes, once I have tasted the fruit, I understand the shell for what it is. Once I have seen the territory, I know the map for what it is.

 

[stranger]

I know many struggle. I've been confused and struggling here but my spirit stays steady and strong, always on the still point. I have that particular gift/freedom from God. My spirit is sort of like that short Tennyson poem, the eagle. He clasps the crag with crooked hands, close to the sun in lonely lands. He watches from his mountains walls, the wrinkled sea beneath him crawls. And, like a thunderbolt, he falls. (Might have messed some of that up, just doing it from memory).

 

[stranger]

Everything feels easy to me this morning, but you have to understand I am a social phobic. I fear public speaking, classrooms, and crowded restaurants. Posting is at times sort of like throwing up. You don't want to do it but you know you will feel better once you do.

 

[stranger]

So people are struggling. We hide it well, very understandable. It's our vulnerability we protect, and rightly so, it's been trampled more than a few times. We build strong defenses, fortresses. Protective fortresses eventually become prisons. I know it well, I'm the same. I'm going to cut this off for now, hope you guys will continue to discuss. Sometimes I don't know if I'm too much, not enough, or whatever. All I know is we're a little further down that line, still on that train. It's a good thing.

 

[Thomas]

Fine .. so why have we got the Early Christian Fathers denouncing it?

Because of its iffy cosmology

It was found with other "gnostic material" hidden in a cave.

Yep, dating from around the 4th century, so by your reckoning, every chance it was already worked-over by Nicene Christians! The found materials were not the original, but copies, so who knows?

It's Gnostic in the sense of its cosmology, although apparently it does deviate from what we know of Valentinian gnosticism.

Really, when we say 'Gnostic' we're talking about a broad range of beliefs, varying degrees of orthodoxy, heterodoxy and heresy all in together. Unlike the Gospels of Philip, Judas, Thomas, etc., the author does not claim to be the sole recipient of the secret keys of knowledge from Jesus. Nor does its author claim to be 'the only one in the know' which was the standard assertion of Gnostic teachers (hence my equivalence between 2/3rd century Gnosticism and 70s cult movements).

 

[Thomas]

Well, we don't have to call it 3, see. Neither do we have to call it trinity. I call father, son, and holy spirit, the MEANS. The means for what? The means to reach, to pursue his children in the dark places he knows they will go. It's the heart for them, the love for them, the means to fill each one of them with himself. How far back does that go? Does it have a beginning?

Yahoo! have you ever come across the phrase "economic Trinity"?

In Patristic teaching, there is a distinction between the 'economic Trinity' and the 'ontological Trinity' — Athanasius speaks of the 'oikonomia' and the 'theologia' (although I've always found the terms are rather confusing!).

Oikonomia derives from oikos, 'house' + nemein 'management'. In short, good housekeeping.

In theological terms, 'Economical-Trinity' is God's revelation of His plan for creation and, as it turned out, its salvation. In that sense it's God's activity in the world.

Again, in theological terms, the 'Theological-' or 'Immanent-' or 'Ontological-Trinity' is God in Himself, the Isness of the Divine, the idea that for there to be God and the World, as it were, there must to be the principle of Unity within the One-ness. If there were not, there would only be God in and to Himself, and nothing else.

"Theology" refers to being within the Trinity and "economy" to the works of the Trinity by which God reveals and communicates Himself.

As the Catechism says, it's through the oikonomia that the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia. God's works reveal who he is; the mystery of His inmost being enlightens our understanding of all His works.

Scripture says God is love, but for 'love to be in its fulness, there has to be subject, object, and that which unties, there has to be the Lover, the Loved, and the Love they have in common. Something can't love nothing, If God was all there is, there would be no Love.

The Trinity Oikonomia is the exoteric teaching, the Trinity Theologia is the esoteric teaching. But they are both one and the same Trinity, one in time, one in eternity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well, we don't have to call it 3, see. Neither do we have to call it trinity. I call father, son, and holy spirit, the MEANS..

OK .. so I can claim that "insert my favorite person here" is ALSO God.
I shan't though .. because I don't agree with corrupting the shema, as you know.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yep, dating from around the 4th century, so by your reckoning, every chance it was already worked-over by Nicene Christians! The found materials were not the original, but copies, so who knows?

What? What do you mean by "original"? We aren't describing antiques here, are we?

apparently it does deviate from what we know of Valentinian gnosticism.

"Apparently" is an understatement, imo.

Really, when we sat 'Gnostic' we're talking about a broad range of beliefs, varying degrees of orthodoxy, heterodoxy and heresy all in together.

Yes .. basically, anything you don't agree with

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God was all there is, there would be no Love..

That depends on what God is .. surely?
Our souls belong to God .. Almighty God is eternal .. meaning that the universe can disappear, but He still remains.
What is a soul, then? They are not part of the universe either .. where do THEY come from, if not from God?

 

[Thomas]

That depends on what God is .. surely?

What's your definition then?

Our souls ... the universe ...

Your talking about life? This is after the fact, as it were ... what need does God have of life, or a universe or universes, or, indeed, a creation?

What is a soul, then? They are not part of the universe either .. where do THEY come from, if not from God?

Same place the universe comes from ... God, but that does not mean the soul or the universe is God, just that God wills souls and universes to be.

If the soul was God, then the soul would know Itself, for what can limit the self-knowing of the Divine? The fact that we don't know tells us much.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What's your definition then?

Hmm .. I'll leave that to you .. but He certainly is NOT a trinity .. He is infinite

..If the soul was God, then the soul would know Itself, for what can limit the self-knowing of the Divine? The fact that we don't know tells us much.

I'm not suggesting "the soul is God" .. I'm saying that souls BELONG to God.

..so you said "If God was all there is, there would be no Love".
I disagree .. I don't see that souls are of a "different substance", to use your terminology

 

[stranger]

Yahoo! have you ever come across the phrase "economic Trinity"?

In Patristic teaching, there is a distinction between the 'economic Trinity' and the 'ontological Trinity' — Athanasius speaks of the 'oikonomia' and the 'theologia' (although I've always found the terms are rather confusing!).

Oikonomia derives from oikos, 'house' + nemein 'management'. In short, good housekeeping.

In theological terms, 'Economical-Trinity' is God's revelation of His plan for creation and, as it turned out, its salvation. In that sense it's God's activity in the world.

Again, in theological terms, the 'Theological-' or 'Immanent-' or 'Ontological-Trinity' is God in Himself, the Isness of the Divine, the idea that for there to be God and the World, as it were, there must to be the principle of Unity within the One-ness. If there were not, there would only be God in and to Himself, and nothing else.

"Theology" refers to being within the Trinity and "economy" to the works of the Trinity by which God reveals and communicates Himself.

As the Catechism says, it's through the oikonomia that the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia. God's works reveal who he is; the mystery of His inmost being enlightens our understanding of all His works.

Scripture says God is love, but for 'love to be in its fulness, there has to be subject, object, and that which unties, there has to be the Lover, the Loved, and the Love they have in common. Something can't love nothing, If God was all there is, there would be no Love.

The Trinity Oikonomia is the exoteric teaching, the Trinity Theologia is the esoteric teaching. But they are both one and the same Trinity, one in time, one in eternity.

Hi Thomas,

No, I've never run across that term before. I'm terribly sorry, I just can't read this post. I'm not trying to "game" anyone or anything like that, it's just that my spirit is working overtime and my mind just won't engage at this level. I would say "dumb it down" just a little but even then I don't know if it would register with my spirit. I can't help myself, really messed up at this point.

I feel I should say, when I read your book on the Tarot, three of the arcanum stood out to me: in no special order, the moon, the tower of destruction, and the hermit. To a lesser extent, the fool (it's a floater). In the moon, things are at a standstill, the two dogs (or wolf and dog) both howl at the moon with a human's face on it. The prima materia is stuck in stagnant water, and there seems to be no way out. Everything is locked in, we seek to look to the heavenlies but all we see is our own image in the moon.

What is needed is for the heavenlies to look down upon our situation and show us the way out. This is not a depressing arcanum. This is an arcanum that always must be there before real change can take place. The anonymous author sees retrograde movement (backwards) but I see no such thing, I just see being "stuck", being at a standstill. No matter what goes on in that arcanum, what kind of frenzied action, when all the dust settles it will be the same thing, stuck. I'm right there in it, I'm not free but just as trapped as anyone there. (whew) I need out of that thing.

 

[stranger]

I'm sorry if I have to take frequent breaks from this, I wasn't kidding when I said it's like throwing up, and no one wants to throw up all day, it would destroy them probably. So I'll be on and off here as I am able. I'm trying to follow along as best I can. Thanks for your patience.

 

[RJM]

Hmm .. I'll leave that to you .. but He certainly is NOT a trinity .. He is infinit

Infinity by your standard is all numbers, backwards and forwards in time, and all the fractions between all the numbers. Is God measured by numerical tricks? If so God is not only trinity, but all possible numerical values? Infinite simply means outside of time

 

[muhammad_isa]

Infinity by your standard is all numbers, backwards and forwards in time, and all the fractions between all the numbers. Is God measured by numerical tricks?

Definitely not !
I'm being serious .. I'm not trying to equate God with a finite number.
It is debatable whether the Oneness of God is a numerical finite concept .. but any other number clearly is, imo.

If so God is not only trinity, but all possible numerical values?

Exactly ! That is not good. That can lead to all kinds of erroneous belief.

Infinite simply means outside of time

Not really. That would be eternal.
Infinite can be applied in many different contexts.

..and what do you think?
Are souls of a "different substance" to Almighty God?

If so, how many different substances are there?