Well that's interesting..
It is NOT that it is "mysterious" or impossible .. it is because the Qur'an says that he didn't [ actually die on the cross ].
Who created God?
- Thread starter muhammad_isa
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Well that's interesting..
It is NOT that it is "mysterious" or impossible .. it is because the Qur'an says that he didn't [ actually die on the cross ].
Not ignored .. just shown that those beliefs are construed by Early Christians who wanted
to hide the knowledge of "the Father"
But virgin birth and physical ascension are logical? Nothing mysterious about any of that?
Some of them were Arian.
Not the majority. As already repeated to exhaustion here.
As always you select what suits, and dump what does not.
You are entitled to your own beliefs ... as are others
No .. nothing illogical about that at all.
Almighty God is spiritual, and the origin of the universe [ space-time ] .. He does what He wills.
..but if we claim that Jesus is Almighty God and eternal [ Gospel of John ], then that certainly IS illogical.
Jesus IS the Father [ but not really because he prays to the Father etc. ]
It is very convenient that "the Father's law / knowledge" is no longer necessary or valid.
..just what the Roman administration wanted to establish.
Again .. it is an illusion.
If one accuses all but trinitarians of small groups being gnostic [ or arian ], it conjures up a picture that they were the majority.
Why is it that the Gospel of Truth is an Arian belief [ subordinate ]?
..and what is Gnostic about it, other than it is not trinitarian?
In fact you need to reject the Gospel of John because it does not agree with what 'your own' scripture says about Jesus. You must prove that 'your own' scripture is inerrant. Therefore it's fine to ignore history and evidence, and throw out the parts of Christian scripture that do not agree, in order to conform Christ to the logical limits placed upon Jesus by 'your own' scripture.
It's that simple.
On a side note..
Is it illogical that yesterday was a lovely warm sunny day, and outside my window right now, it is snowing?
Is it illogical that yesterday was a lovely warm sunny day, and outside my window right now, it is snowing?
Oh, and if the Qur'an says it, it must be true!
(Sorry, just answering in kind )I'd find the Qur'an more reliable if I did not know that the childhood stories of Jesus in the traditions of Islam are fictions that the Christian community saw through and dismissed centuries before ... the stories survived in populist retelling – like my aunt, God bless her, who once told me Jesus was the only man who was perfectly and exactly six foot tall!
The Jesus of the Qur'an are a mishmash of Biblical testimony, populist mythology, the inevitable syncretism and a 'filling in' of the gaps that were folded into the Prophet's discourses.
No it is NOT fine to ignore history and evidence!
Why are you ignoring the Gospel of Truth?
On a side note..
Is it illogical that yesterday was a lovely warm sunny day, and outside my window right now, it is snowing?
https://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha-the-gospel-of-truth/
The Father opens his bosom, and his bosom is the Holy Spirit. He reveals his hidden self, which is his Son, so that through the compassion of the Father the eternal beings may know him, end their wearying search for the Father, and rest themselves in him, knowing that this is rest. After he had filled what was incomplete, he did away with its form. The form of that which was incomplete is the world, which it served.
For this reason Jesus appeared … He was nailed to a cross …
Oh, such great teaching! He abases himself even unto death, though he is clothed in eternal life. Having divested himself of these perishable rags, he clothed himself in incorruptibility, which no one could possibly take from him. Having entered into the empty territory of fears, he passed before those who were stripped by forgetfulness, being both knowledge and perfection, proclaiming the things that are in the heart of the Father, so that he became the wisdom of those who have received instruction.
Since the perfection of all is in the Father, it is necessary for all to ascend to him. Therefore, if one has knowledge, he gets what belongs to him and draws it to himself …
@RJM Corbet OK .. and your point is?
I think that it is quite clear that the GoT is subordinate .. do you disagree?
I think it is also clear that it was written in opposition to other "churches" / beliefs.
..so where does it differ from established Roman Christianity?
I think that it is quite clear that the GoT is subordinate .. do you disagree?
I think it is also clear that it was written in opposition to other "churches" / beliefs.
..so where does it differ from established Roman Christianity?
Where does the above conform to Islam? Or to Arianism in the way you use the term?
Huh?
The Qur'an wasn't revealed until centuries later.
..this is about the false claim that the majority of Early Christians were not subordinate, imo.
Why? Is your argument that the GoT is NOT subordinate in nature?
..perhaps because of the couple of "translated verses" that you offer?
You are presenting me with a document that is supposed to support your own non-trinitarian and subordinate view of early Christians, where in fact the passages above show exactly the opposite.
Whatever comes later, develops from that assumption: The Father opens his bosom, and his bosom is the Holy Spirit. He reveals his hidden self, which is his Son ...
Whatever comes later, develops from that assumption: The Father opens his bosom, and his bosom is the Holy Spirit. He reveals his hidden self, which is his Son ...
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"The theology that Irenaeus attributed to Valentinus is extremely complicated and difficult to follow. There is some skepticism among scholars that the system actually originated with him, and many believe that the system Irenaeus was counteracting was the construct of later Valentinians."
Irenaeus is reported to have claimed that the GoT was valentinian gnosticism.
What's going on here, then?
Irenaeus is reported to have claimed that the GoT was valentinian gnosticism.
What's going on here, then?