The Jewish Zohar Shekhinah and the Christian, & Mormon Holy Spirit

Thomas said:
Not in Christian doctrine. Not in Jewish, either,
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You appear to be assuming a generic all around singular Christian outlook and Jewish outlook. I have a suspicion this is not valid. There is nor has there ever been a Christian view, but many. Same with the Jewish end of things... I KNOW there are some Christians who have hat view, and I suspect there are some Jews who do also.
 
muhammad_isa said:
.....and the man became a living person.
- Genesis 2:7 -
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It doesn't say that. It says that man became a living being. The Torah uses the exact same phrase when describing the creation of animal life.
 
RabbiO said:
It doesn't say that. It says that man became a living being. The Torah uses the exact same phrase when describing the creation of animal life.
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I'm sure you are right.
Translations are often inaccurate. The point remains though, that Almighty God "breathed" His spirit into them.
 
RabbiO said:
It doesn't say that. It says that man became a living being. The Torah uses the exact same phrase when describing the creation of animal life.
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I'm not trying to argue, just examining this idea - וַיִּ֩יצֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה This is Genesis 2:7. The הָֽאָדָ֖ם does mean "the man." The interesting Hebrew לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ does have the prefix on it, the Hebrew word used here is נֶ֥פֶשׁ "nephesh" is usually translated as "soul" by the majority of translations, and yet it does translate it as "person" some 23 times. It translates as "my life" some 36 times. So there does appear as far as the semantic range of use that it can have, depending on context perhaps, mean mostly as soul or his soul or my soul, but also of persons, and person, life and in one case as "corpse." It does have a translation as "minds" also, but very rare. It also has a translation of "my heart" interestingly, but again, quite rare.
 
Covers a lot of ground Scholarly. Today I'm going to go with "corpse".
 
Hi ScholarlySeeker —
ScholarlySeeker said:
"nephesh" is usually translated as "soul" by the majority of translations, and yet it does translate it as "person" some 23 times. It translates as "my life" some 36 times. So there does appear as far as the semantic range of use that it can have, depending on context perhaps, mean mostly as soul or his soul or my soul, but also of persons, and person, life and in one case as "corpse."
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Quite, which is why I've posted on the distinctions between nephesh, ruah and neshamah. Nephesh seems to infer the 'animal soul', ruah a 'mental soul', and neshamah a 'spiritual soul'. Animals have nephesh, for example, and while ruah means breath, it refers primarily to God or man.
 
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RJM Corbet said:
Perhaps eternity means time extended infinitely forward backward in time. It is a natural temporal concept. But Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates time and space and nature. Scriptures use human words trying to show spiritual truths to natural minds. Natural law is derived from spiritual law 'through a glass darkly' but natural law and spiritual law often seem to differ?

How 'long' would it take Mao Tse Tung to expurgate the karma of causing 70 million deaths, first having to recognize his sin, and then having to try to reparate for it to every individual -- feeling in himself the suffering he has caused to each one, weeping for them, wishing he could go back and fix the damage? Terrible suffering. They are at peace, but he is tormented by what he has done?

Of course the utterly pitiless Mao did not believe in life after death.
Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31)
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Personally, I am in eternity. It is the eternal now (IMHO). I don’t think eternity is about time, but a state of consciousness. I do exercises where I practice coming into a certain mental state; I like to think there is only one day, and that which plays on the screen of my mind just changes. Or I know myself to be an eternal centre with God’s nature eternally changing around me.

I was contemplating time once and that all of creation from beginning to end was happening now, (the dinosaurs are here now, Jesus is walking the earth now - when I believed he was an historical person- I am a little child now, etc) and I had a vision of creation as a spiral, spiralling upon itself.

The Bible states that creation is a done deal. So I understand we are only seeing a teeny tiny point, or conscious of a very minute part, of the whole of which we are one.

Ive been taught that time is an instrument of measurement, and I agree.

I have also come across this: Space is a conceptual facility to accommodate experience as time is a conceptual facility for altering experience. Which I quite like.

My understanding of karma is you reap what you sow - which is on a mental/emotional level (or level of beingness). Not so much debt to be worked off. One can offset one’s karma by going in another direction (or repentance- a radical change in belief or attitude).
 
PricelessPearl said:
The Bible states that creation is a done deal. So I understand we are only seeing a teeny tiny point, or conscious of a very minute part, of the whole of which we are one.
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I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Yes the whole has always existed, so it is a done deal in that regard, but there are vast changes going on all the time, which is a part of creation/destruction all at once, such as when two galaxies collide and changes everything about both of them. I do think you carry a powerful point that we only see a mere point compared to an entire universe however.

And, as usual, and I don't mean to bore people with this, but I find it so insightfully fascinating the more I read, I find in the Zohar ideas that we are creators along with God, that we are more or less partners in the process, because they view the creation as a process, which is part of what we ourselves are, yet we also get to influence it, along with God. I find that idea quite encouraging and interesting personally.
 
PricelessPearl said:
Personally, I am in eternity. It is the eternal now (IMHO). I don’t think eternity is about time, but a state of consciousness.
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Yes, that's it.
There is "clock" time and there is philosophical time.
..so being in heaven for eternity, is as you say "a state of consciousness".

If one sees heaven as disconnected to this life .. as in heaven starts when you die .. then that gives one a false picture
of why God has given us the Bible in the first place. What is there to be saved from, in that case.
 
ScholarlySeeker said:
I'm not quite sure what to make of this. Yes the whole has always existed, so it is a done deal in that regard, but there are vast changes going on all the time, which is a part of creation/destruction all at once, such as when two galaxies collide and changes everything about both of them. I do think you carry a powerful point that we only see a mere point compared to an entire universe however.

And, as usual, and I don't mean to bore people with this, but I find it so insightfully fascinating the more I read, I find in the Zohar ideas that we are creators along with God, that we are more or less partners in the process, because they view the creation as a process, which is part of what we ourselves are, yet we also get to influence it, along with God. I find that idea quite encouraging and interesting personally.
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Well, I believe past, present and future are now - in eternity. I don’t see that as conflicting at all with the unfolding of reality, or what we deem as the folding. Also referred to as YHVH, from what I believe anyway.

And wholeheartedly believe we create reality. Or more, God creates in us, through us all. Which relates to what I have said here before, is my understanding that we really aren’t doing anything- our ego thinks we are. But he who exalts himself is made low, and he who makes himself low is exalted.
 
PricelessPearl said:
..Which relates to what I have said here before, is my understanding that we really aren’t doing anything- our ego thinks we are..
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I can agree with the rest of your post .. but I believe as Catholic doctrine teaches .. that we really are individually in danger
of going to an eternal hell. However one wants to define "eternal", it doesn't negate that doctrine, in my mind.

Scripture comes first. Philosophy comes second !
 
muhammad_isa said:
Yes, that's it.
There is "clock" time and there is philosophical time.
..so being in heaven for eternity, is as you say "a state of consciousness".

If one sees heaven as disconnected to this life .. as in heaven starts when you die .. then that gives one a false picture
of why God has given us the Bible in the first place. What is there to be saved from, in that case.
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Despite my experience of oneness with God, which I definitely consider heaven, I am told that there is the next world which is significantly greater. I have never had a glimpse into it myself but will share the experience if I do.

I think one needs to find heaven here and not in an after life.
 
muhammad_isa said:
I can agree with the rest of your post .. but I believe as Catholic doctrine teaches .. that we really are individually in danger
of going to an eternal hell. However one wants to define "eternal", it doesn't negate that doctrine, in my mind.

Scripture comes first. Philosophy comes second !
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That would depend on one’s interpretation of scripture.

And I am not rehashing the eternal hell phooey with you again:p
 
muhammad_isa said:
You don't agree with the Pope then, Señorita ;)
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Here are just three set of scriptures that seem to validate the doctrine of eternal judgement:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels... -- Matthew 25:41

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. -- Matthew 18:8

and finally,

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -- Isaiah 33:14

With all the usual caveats in place (IMO), my view is that for law to be law, holy, just and true, it must follow through with its threats against disobedience. If man is not able to "fix" himself, I can come to none other conclusion than everlasting punishment awaits. The sins mankind commits are bad enough, but the problem goes deeper. There is a disease in the heart that is so much a part of him that he can't fix it by normal means (his own effort). This is also the "lump" of the writer of the Cloud of Unknowing, Paul's "carnal mind", "old man", etc.

Scriptures also indicate that mankind is not born pure and sinless. Was it David that said something like, "I came out of the womb, speaking lies." (this is a paraphrase, will look that up in a little bit) Not to say that an innocent baby is guilty of anything, only that everyone bears a curse from their very birth into this world. It then develops, as the environment calls it out. But it was there from the beginning.

Ah, here we go, Psalms 58:3:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
(I think the wicked is us.)

Now, I don't have the all the answers, if any, but I just throw in here and hope something positive might happen. I have no control, just have to roll with the flow.
 
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