Why Do People Like To Talk About Their Spiritual Beliefs?

[RJM]

What happens if the answer is one that a person chooses not to hear?

I was asking him to explain a passage in the Quran, and he did so.

It has already been extensively covered in previous threads that the terms Father and Son are relative human terms to explain the Divine mystery. Getting locked into the literal terms is counterproductive so far as I'm concerned. But that's just me.

It's also true that although the term Father was used occasionally in the old Testament, it was Christ himself who bought the term to front and centre in his teaching, imo.

It has all been discussed and dissected to exhaustion in several previous threads. I don't see it matters that Isaac Newton was an Arian. There have always been some Arians. It's irrelevant. Stephen Hawking, who later occupied Newton's Lucasian chair of mathematics at Cambridge, was an atheist and Max Plank, who originated quantum theory, was a Lutheran Christian.

 

[Thomas]

No .. I'm not exaggerating.

You were in reference to the Arian Dispute being the cause of a 'considerable amount of violence over the ages' – the response to Arius was notably 'non-violent' – Constantine was quite even-handed, remarkably so considering all the other dreadful things he's supposed to have done – Five people were exiled after Nicaea, and they were all invited back subsequently... That's it.

I know you like to pain Nicenes as bloodthirsty book-burners, but really!

Then we had pro-Arian and anti-Arian emperors, the Nicene champion Athanasius holds the record for being exiled three, maybe five, times!

Theodosius made Nicene Christianity the state religion, and outlawed everyone else, but his persecution was economic – removing the rights of inheritance and transmission – a much subtler approach than prison, torture and execution.

Compared to later conflicts, I'd say relatively peaceful. The wars with the Arian Germanic peoples were about territory, not religion.

Considering how Papists and Protestants battered each other in post-Reformation Europe, or Shia and Sunni in the Middle East ... one has to draw a parallel to get perspective.

Unitarians are often called "Arians". You might not like that, but it is a fact "

It's a fact they are called such, but then Arianism has become a generic term, like 'hoover', 'biro' or 'sellotape' – its in general usage, but it's technically wrong, as not all vacuum cleaners are made by Hoover, etc. Unitarians, Socinians, Mormons, Moslems, etc, are a long way from Arius. One might as well include Buddhists, too!

 

[Thomas]

Why does one have to be so technical? Isn't the result the same thing?

I thought you were interested in learning about history ... apparently not.

i.e. People who don't believe that Jesus is God and the orthodox trinity, are to be squashed as it is heretical belief.

Can you point to where this is happening today?

 

[Thomas]

I'm afraid this approach makes no sense to me.

OK. Does to most.

You cite various different websites, that I'm not familiar with. The internet is full of "opinions". Let's go back to "good old wikipedia", which is more accountable. It is read by billions of people.

LOL! If you think that's a proof of anything, you're sadly mistaken!

 

[Thomas]

One day I decided to read Bible front to back, Old and New and find passages that showed Jesus was Not God. I ended up with 5 x A4 pages of 4 columns of verses that indicate clearly that Jesus is Not God, but the Spirit that was Jesus was of God.

In your own words: "The sources speak and one chooses to hear what they say."

 

[Thomas]

In the past those that first accepted Christ would have been ridiculed by the Scholar's of the time, yet they are the benchmark of scholarship these days.

D'you think? Curiously, many scholars I have met stand in awe of the early believers. I know I do.

But then, I stand in awe of simple faith that has no need of scholarship, nor rhetoric, nor sophistry

Many people in history have been killed by scholars, branded as heritics, whereas it was most likely they were not wrong.

It's a sad fact, but then, many more have been killed by science.

At root, it'a all about people, love, and the lack of ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

"It is the same with cows: The only thing that matters is what comes out at the end!"



To people like me, lurking in the corners, the finer details do matter. Sometimes it is vital to understand more about the various ends in such a matter.

I suppose .. but I find it frustrating when somebody is trying to avoid the issue.
i.e. Arians [ non-Nicene trinitarians ] and their historic battles

It matters little to me whether you want to call people Saracens or Muhammadans or Nestorians or Arians or bla-bla.
I'm sure there is fine detail of different battles and people's creeds, but the common factor in these conflicts is Nicene Christians !

One could accuse Muslims of doing exactly the same thing .. battles with "kafirs" etc.
However, I was referring to the apparent GREAT IMPORTANCE of Jesus being God. Why is it such a crime to believe otherwise???

It's all very well saying that that is the past, and since the 1800's Western society is more tolerant .. but it is very clear
that the "undercurrent" of Christian thought remains the same. On just has to read RJM Corbet's posts to know that.
He becomes angry about the issue . WHY??? Why does it matter so much?

May I ask a personal question? At one point in the past weeks, I read a post by you, saying you consider yourself Christian, in that Islam is a superset of Christianity. You also mention the various unitarian Christian denominations. And you keep bringing up the topic of violent persecution of such Christian denominations by the churches of Rome and Constantinople.

My question is: What's your stake in this?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of these issues. Why did / do people feel so "hot" about it?
I know the majority of Christians are trintarians. It is a belief that they are brought up with .. as was I.
What is so threatening about Jesus NOT being God? Does God vanish from sight in such a scenario?

Why were people persecuted for thnking otherwise up until very recently?
[ I mentioned the emigration of the Amish to USA from Europe, for example ]

It must be very close to your heart, but I haven't been able to see it yet.

It is close to my heart. I did not like the way that Thomas and RJM Corbet [ amongst others ] behaved over the issue
of refutation of "website articles", as you know. I have no problem with people believing whatever they like, for whatever reason.
..but I do not like the attitude of "THIS SITE IS TOO ATHEIST", and we will now get rid of anything that disagrees with Jesus is God.

Do you see now .. or do you not?

 

[Thomas]

I did not like the way that Thomas and RJM Corbet [ amongst others ] behaved over the issue ...

Ah. Sorry if that offend you.

Now I see what this is all really about.

Poor old Arius is a sideshow once again.

Again, my apologies, offence was never my intention.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't see it matters that Isaac Newton was an Arian. There have always been some Arians. It's irrelevant. Stephen Hawking, who later occupied Newton's Lucasian chair of mathematics at Cambridge, was an atheist and Max Plank, who originated quantum theory, was a Lutheran Christian.

Fine .. just bulldoze on with your agenda and ignore his insightful list of points.
He was a fellow believer in God, as well as an extremely intelligent scholar.
..but not your "particular flavour" .. no.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The wars with the Arian Germanic peoples were about territory, not religion.

Oh. were they? If they hadn't have been Arians, would they then have loved their Christian brothers?
No, apparently not. It was about land.

Considering how Papists and Protestants battered each other in post-Reformation Europe, or Shia and Sunni in the Middle East ... one has to draw a parallel to get perspective.

No .. every issue is a separate one.

It's a fact they are called such, but then Arianism has become a generic term, like 'hoover', 'biro' or 'sellotape' – its in general usage, but it's technically wrong, as not all vacuum cleaners are made by Hoover, etc. Unitarians, Socinians, Mormons, Moslems, etc, are a long way from Arius. One might as well include Buddhists, too!

That's the thing, you see. EVERY time you try to make it about Arius' letters etc. and avoid the main issues.
i.e. persecution of people who believed "wrongly" about Jesus.

So-called Christians who make laws to kill those who don't believe that Jesus is God.
Why? Why? Why?

Politics? Absolutely! .. not much to do with love for your fellow-believer in God, that's for sure.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Again, my apologies, offence was never my intention.

Apology accepted. I don't bear grudges or anything like that.
It simply inflamed the rhetoric between us all, as it seemed the agenda was one of "now let's clean up stuff that's been here a long time and is rubbish."
..and it just happened to be written by a Catholic who was thinking "out of the box"

 

[RJM]

Why is it such a crime to believe otherwise???

It's a crime??? In the UK where you live? Anywhere? Is your comment honest???

On just has to read RJM Corbet's posts to know that ... He becomes angry about the issue . WHY??? Why does it matter so much?

I get angry at someone trying to turn this website into a personal soapbox to rubbish other faiths, across multiple threads and in a snide and personal manner of address.

What is so threatening about Jesus NOT being God? Does God vanish from sight in such a scenario?

It is far more subtle and complicated, no matter how often it is explained, you like to oversimplify.

It is close to my heart. I did not like the way that Thomas and RJM Corbet [ amongst others ] behaved over the issue of refutation of "website articles" ... I do not like the attitude of "THIS SITE IS TOO ATHEIST", and we will now get rid of anything that disagrees with Jesus is God.

The articles are bad and full of inaccuracy, inadequacy and conjecture so instead of chucking them out altogether, it was decided to publish an alternative view alongside them.
https://www.interfaith.org/articles/response-to-pauline-conspiracy/
https://www.interfaith.org/response-to-an-affair-on-golgotha/

You know this. You even offered to write an article yourself, which offer was accepted, provided the quality was acceptable, but it was never taken up?
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19628/

You allege that @Garaffa's articles are badly written or have no credibility.
Maybe you would like ME to write an article with explicit refs, being more precise?
No .. I didn't think so

Go for it. Post it on the forums first.

Atheists are encouraged to participate in IO. So are people of all faiths.
Can you not try to be honest?
Will you please stop accusing me of censorship?

I have no problem with people believing whatever they like, for whatever reason.

But you DO! All your energy on this website is directed against what other people believe.

So-called Christians who make laws to kill those who don't believe that Jesus is God.
Why? Why? Why?

Where? Where? Where? This is happening where you live?

edited ...

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is far more subtle and complicated, no matter how often it is explained, you like to oversimplify.

How? Why does it matter whether somebody believes that Jesus is God or not?
How does it affect God? How does it affect how we should behave towards each other?

But you DO! All your energy on this website is directed against what other people believe.

..so what is your "energy" directed towards? What do YOU want to talk about?

 

[Cino]

It is close to my heart. I did not like the way that Thomas and RJM Corbet [ amongst others ] behaved over the issue
of refutation of "website articles", as you know. I have no problem with people believing whatever they like, for whatever reason.
..but I do not like the attitude of "THIS SITE IS TOO ATHEIST", and we will now get rid of anything that disagrees with Jesus is God.

Do you see now .. or do you not?

I am starting to see: you are upholding and defending the memory of a deceased participant, and his work. Thank you for clearing up my confusion. Would you like to suggest a different, perhaps more respectful way of how to respond to Victor Garaffa's articles?

I'm not quite there yet regarding the arguments in this present thread, however.

To me, the belief that Jesus is God, is just that, a belief held by believers in one particular religion, Trinitarian Christianity (and maybe also the Baha'i faith, I'm not sure I understood their belief regarding Jesus' and Baha'u'llah's divinity). I do not believe this, and neither do many other participants on this site. However, those who believe this feel strongly about being challenged and questioned in their belief, evidently And to be fair, challenging and questioning belief is not what this forum is about. Imagine if I went about questioning all the participant's beliefs on the grounds that my own position of Atheism be the only tenable one.

However, this is an interfaith site, not a Christian one, nor an atheist one.

I don't want to sidestep anything, just understand better, please indulge me for a moment if I bring up some parallel scenarios, and share whether you think they are relevant or not.

Let's take one you suggested, the great importance (in some religions) of not bowing to idols. Why is it such a crime? Why were people persecuted until recently in some regions of the world for doing just that?

Another one: the great importance (in some religions) of food taboos. Why is it such a crime to eat certain foods? Why were people persecuted for consuming beans, or horse meat, or coffee?

 

[RJM]

Moved to new thread:
The Sayings of the Tantric Mystic Master Yashua The Nazarene
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19719/

 

[muhammad_isa]

Any thoughts from anyone:
The Sayings Of The Tantric Mystic Master Yashua The Nazarene

Can I ask you to reply to post #133 please?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am starting to see: you are upholding and defending the memory of a deceased participant, and his work..

No .. that's not it.
This website was quite different when @StevePame was in charge when I first joined. He was the only moderator, and seemed to me to be doing a good job. He is a cultured, polite person and served this site well.
Naturally, being an atheist, he had no care about opinions of atheist articles etc.

When I found the website had changed due to unfortunate circumstances of Steve, I offered to help out.
Clearly, many of the former participants no longer post. Is that due to me, as has been alleged? I don't think so.
Many atheist posters said that they no longer had any interest in the site, well before our problems started.

It seems that @RJM Corbet thinks that "interfaith" means what it says. That does not include atheists, who have no faith then?

To me, the belief that Jesus is God, is just that, a belief held by believers in one particular religion, Trinitarian Christianity..

Yes..

However, those who believe this feel strongly about being challenged and questioned in their belief, evidently And to be fair, challenging and questioning belief is not what this forum is about..

Oh, really?
Do you want me to bring up all the old threads such as "Is Jesus God?" etc. and all Will's humorous replies and so on?

I don't want to sidestep anything, just understand better, please indulge me for a moment if I bring up some parallel scenarios, and share whether you think they are relevant or not.

Let's take one you suggested, the great importance (in some religions) of not bowing to idols. Why is it such a crime? Why were people persecuted until recently in some regions of the world for doing just that?

Another one: the great importance (in some religions) of food taboos. Why is it such a crime to eat certain foods? Why were people persecuted for consuming beans, or horse meat, or coffee?

Of course we can discuss those. Perhaps you would like to start a thread about them?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Clearly, many of the former participants no longer post. Is that due to me, as has been alleged? I don't think so.
Many atheist posters said that they no longer had any interest in the site, well before our problems started.

It seems that @RJM Corbet thinks that "interfaith" means what it says. That does not include atheists, who have no faith then?

Actually, on second thoughts, I think I should expand on that.
The dispute between regularly posters and the new management was in how the CoC was to be interpreted?
..and I agreed with @RJM Corbet that deleting lots of posts or banning most new members was inappropriate.
Sorry Roger. I have no problem with your admin, really !

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These 2 are the most important issues, I would say.
I can sincerely tell everybody that I have NO intention of using IO as a soapbox,
despite @RJM's accusations when he becomes angry
I also do not want a "flame war".

Can we not try to sort out these issues as gentlemen?
Thankyou.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is far more subtle and complicated, no matter how often it is explained, you like to oversimplify.

How? Why does it matter whether somebody believes that Jesus is God or not?
How does it affect God? How does it affect how we should behave towards each other?

But you DO! All your energy on this website is directed against what other people believe.

..so what is your "energy" directed towards? What do YOU want to talk about?

 

[Cino]

When I found the website had changed due to unfortunate circumstances of Steve, I offered to help out.
Clearly, many of the former participants no longer post. Is that due to me, as has been alleged? I don't think so.
Many atheist posters said that they no longer had any interest in the site, well before our problems started.

It seems that @RJM Corbet thinks that "interfaith" means what it says. That does not include atheists, who have no faith then?

If I had a cent for evey time I was told by believers how Atheists have faith, too, I'd be rich! How refreshing to be denied faith by a believer, for once. Thank you

More seriously, while I have no personal faith in any gods or God, I grew up in several countries and was influenced by multiple faiths: Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism. The various branches of my family adhere to different faiths. Similarly, my wife has ancestors of two different faiths. One definition of interfaith is just this, living with more than one faith in one's relationships.

This forum is called the "Interfaith Dialogue Forum" on the home page of I.O. So even if someone's background is of a single faith, here one can encounter people of other faiths, theist or atheist.

If your personal faith draws from multiple religions, as I understand you now, identifying as Muslim and Christian, well, that, too is interfaith.

These 2 are the most important issues, I would say.
I can sincerely tell everybody that I have NO intention of using IO as a soapbox,
despite @RJM's accusations when he becomes angry
I also do not want a "flame war".

Yes, I was trying to put my finger on this, with my question about what it is about Arianism that is so close to your heart that you have brought it up in every thread for the past months. Responses have been scholarly (from Thomas), and personally offended (from RJM), due to the perceived soapbox stance of "how could anyone in their right mind believe such a thing as the Trinity", which even I as someone who does not believe in anything like the Trinity find to sound increasingly caustic with each repetition. I can understand how believers in the Trinity would find it offensive after a while.

If you are trying to make a point, please state it plainly, in the interest your own appeal:

Can we not try to sort out these issues as gentlemen?
Thankyou.

Thank you as well! And peace.