30 verses of Bible say " Jesus did not die on the Cross".

[RJM]

Whether or not William Shakespeare is actually the person who authored the works attributed to him doesn't affect the content of the work? It doesn't invalidate the historical or literary value of the writing?

The problem would be the inclusion in the so-called works of Shakespeare of plays or poems that were not written by the same person, perhaps added centuries later?

 

[Cino]

Indeed you might......... be missing my point.
Would you like to tell me how you have decided about the gospel accounts, if at all?
Was it at school, or in a church, or by studying the scholars, or through a degree course, etc etc?
How have you found your truth about the gospels?

Well, I grew up with the Gospel stories, as you do, Christmas, Easter, at home, in school, some religious education, contact with a Christian youth group as an adolescent. My family moved across three continents before I was twenty, we lived in Muslim, Christian, and Buddhist majority countries. I have Jewish in-laws and cousins (from a different family line). I read lots of different religious scriptures and commentaries in my late teens and early twenties, cover-to-cover, and discussed the puzzling parts with people who were into it, learned and self-taught. I tend to respect the depth and breadth of a good scholar. I don't have many original thoughts, there are footsteps in the snow wherever I go, figuratively speaking. I like it when someone can tell me the story of what led people down this or that track. It gives me more options, not having to expend my life time mapping from scratch.

Truths I have discovered about the gospels: That they are truly old texts, with all that entails, fascinating things to learn about them, interesting concepts to explore, in the texts, in the commentaries, in the traditions. And that when I read them as mystical texts, sometimes I get a moment of recognition across the millennia, like a familiar smell, like a nod of acknowledgement. This tends to happen not with the miracle accounts or the resurrection, but with the parables and teachings about the kingdom, such as Luke 20-21, or the parable of the treasure in the field or the pearl, or the yeast and the dough. I find it amazing that other sages across history found very similar words - this tells me that they are onto something deeply human, something we all share, which lies beyond any creed or world view or belief, or birth place or epoch. So, to me, the Gospels, like all religious scriptures, contain these treasures which I sometimes come across. I do not claim that what rings true to me must be some kind of absolute Truth applicable to every human being.

Still, scholars are worth listening to, in my opinion. Not to follow them blindly, but to draw on the knowledge they preserve, pass on, and add to.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Purpose Fulfilled
Jesus found acceptance in the lands of the Lost Tribes and completed his mission by traveling eastward to these ancient Israelite communities.

One objection is if Jesus spent most of his life in India, why is that part of his life so unknown and forgotten?

One has to keep in mind the phenomenon of what happens to a religion’s presence when another religion takes over. For instance, modern-day Afghanistan was a vast center of Buddhism and had some of the largest statues of Buddha in the world carved in stone. That faith has now vanished there. Another example is the pagan religions of Europe prior to Christianity arriving there.

The Israelite peoples of Afghanistan and Kashmir accepted Islam. Jesus had foretold the coming of messenger after him, the Paraclete of the gospels, fulfilled in the person of Holy Prophet Muhammad.

With time, the old faith of Christianity was forgotten over generations so that now there are mainly ‘orthodox Muslims’ in these same areas holding beliefs as other ‘orthodox Muslims’.

However, remnants of the followers of Jesus Christ still exist in the vicinity of Herat, Afghanistan. The British scholar O.M Burke in his book ‘Among the Dervishes’ has described these peoples. Though they are now Muslims, they did not forget their Christian legacy. They have a special attachment to Jesus and refer to him as ‘Yuz Asaf the Kashmiri’ who came to preach to them.

 

[badger]

The point is that, whoever the writer of the gospel was, the gospel of John is first used to support the blood and water 'proof'? And the following proof insists there was no eye-witness? But in fact the writer of the same gospel in the same passage in the very next line states that he was eyewitness to the spearing of Jesus?

Whether one believes the account or not, the gospel of John is used for one proof, then ignored for the next proof.

It doesn't have to be John the apostle.

So this point at this stage is not about the authenticity of validity or authorship of John's gospel, but the inconsistency of using one verse to support the theory, while ignoring that the next verse directly contradicts the theory?

It's irrelevant whether the writer was John the apostle. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't affect the argument. It's just a name. It's accepted by most nowadays that the Apostle John was not the author of the gospel of John. Imo

(edited ...)

OK...... so you and I do not think that disciple John was the author of G-John, but for different reasons.
The reason why I don't bother with the above reasons is because I don't bother to read any part of G-John's description of that event.

I've already discounted many of the claims whilst taking intense interest in entries (verses) which do (imo) definitely add to real detail. Now that's 'accepting one detail and trashing another', I know, but what could be gained by mentioning (offhand) the name of Judas' Dad, or how Jesus was baptising folks (his disciples, that is)........ A lot of the detail rings clear for me.

The idea that a peasant woman and young man (there was no middle class) stood, knelt by the cross is such a nonsense..... the Roman soldiers would have kicked anybody close out of the way. The truth seems to be that Magdalene, Salome and the other woman watched 'from afar', which rings true.

 

[RJM]

The idea that a peasant woman and young man (there was no middle class) stood, knelt by the cross is such a nonsense..... the Roman soldiers would have kicked anybody close out of the way.

How do you know this? The gospels were drawn from stories going around amongst the earliest Christians. They did not seem to think it would be unusual? The earliest Christians were being murdered in Rome within a decade or so after the death of Jesus.

They certainly believed he died on the cross. Cephas believed it. He is commonly supposed to have dictated the gospel of Mark from prison. Even Jesus's brother James believed it -- and they both believed the resurrection too -- at least according to Paul, who says he spent spent 15 days with them. I know -- it doesn't fit the 'swoon' narrative, therefore that part has to be discarded as false, lol

Regarding the glorified resurrected Christ, Taoist and Kundalini immortality yoga is all about generating a new immortal bodhisattva body that can be manifested or multiplied, and then unmanifested again, by the yogi. It's very ancient. It's not a new concept, that Christ could appear in his 'spiritual' body. Manifesting his wounds to convince Thomas that it was indeed him, or eating a bit of fish to convince the apostles that he was real was done to demonstrate his control over his natural physical form -- it was a demonstration.

Parahansa Yogananda, writes about Babaji, the immortal yogi, manifesting a physical body that is always young. The concept is nothing new, imo

 

[RJM]

The concept of the immortal spiritual bodhisattva body is the root of alchemy, the transformation of the natural lead into spiritual gold. The difference would be that Christ was always spiritual; Christ did not need to attain that state. As Christ in/as Jesus was a demonstration of God as Man -- Emmanuel God With Us -- Christ's appearance after the resurrection was a demonstration of his power over death, and of the victory of eternal Spirit, imo

 

[badger]

How do you know this? The gospels were drawn from stories going around amongst the earliest Christians. They did not seem to think it would be unusual?

G-Mark certainly thought it unusual....... 'from afar'.
The idea that folks could be around an execution site as close as 'under the crosses/stakes' seems most strange to me, especially if being run by Roman soldiers.

The earliest Christians were being murdered in Rome within a decade or so after the death of Jesus.

That was later, a completely different situation, and the way I look at the history there were no Christians around at that execution....only Jewish people.

They certainly believed he died on the cross. Cephas believed it. He is commonly supposed to have dictated the gospel of Mark from prison. Even Jesus's brother James believed it -- and they both believed the resurrection too -- at least according to Paul, who says he spent spent 15 days with them. I know -- it doesn't fit the 'swoon' narrative, therefore that part has to be discarded as false, lol

Yes, they did believe, but they weren't there.
And as for James, Jesus's brother, I don't think he was anywhere near Jesus at all... Jesus was very clear about what his true family was. I often wonder about who is being referred to (after the gospels) a brother or the disciple.
And they were nowhere around during the very long period bewtween being taken down (after a few hours) to the empty tomb scene. By the way, how long do you think that period of time was? It looks like Friday evening until Sunday morning to me, circa 30-40 hours.

Regarding the glorified resurrected Christ, Taoist and Kundalini immortality yoga is all about generating a new immortal bodhisattva body that can be manifested or multiplied, and then unmanifested again, by the yogi. It's very ancient. It's not a new concept, that Christ could appear in his 'spiritual' body. Manifesting his wounds to convince Thomas that it was indeed him, or eating a bit of fish to convince the apostles that he was real was done to demonstrate his control over his natural physical form -- it was a demonstration.

Wow! You've written far beyond my knowledge there.
But if you look at it from the perspective that Jesus BarAbbas was the one so loved by all, released upon the demands of thousands and thousands of people (about 4-500,000 Jews attended great feasts, as shown later by Agrippa's census of these) etc etc....then a real man could have seen the boatmen as he passed through to exile, maybe with wounds, eating a fish etc..... so there is absolutely no reason why that could not have happened.

The oral traditions of Cornwall (UK) propose that it happened (another thread!), The oral traditions (and a tomb) in that Indan province (K----?) propose thus, and the story about Jesus going to Gaul propose thus.

Parahansa Yogananda, writes about Babaji, the immortal yogi, manifesting a physical body that is always young. The concept is nothing new, imo

Most interesting....... far beyond my knowledge, but I sure could do with one, a bit younger than myself just now!

 

[badger]

The concept of the immortal spiritual bodhisattva body is the root of alchemy, the transformation of the natural lead into spiritual gold. The difference would be that Christ was always spiritual; Christ did not need to attain that state. As Christ in/as Jesus was a demonstration of God as Man -- Emmanuel God With Us -- Christ's appearance after the resurrection was a demonstration of his power over death, and of the victory of eternal Spirit, imo

That is far beyond my abilities, maybe if I had followed the Buddha's ways I might understand more fully.
And so as an everyday old man I immediately think of the Jesus that the Baptist had to question (are you the one?), the man who loved his meat and wine with his friends, a feet on the deck kind of person who was outraged by Temple wealth, fatness and hypocrisy, a man who wanted to trash the money-making tables of Anna's Bazaar..... I may be a non-theistic Deist but I feel sure that I could have touched this man for real if I had been at those scenes in those times.

It's ok, the 'mythers' are just as frustrated about me as many Christians, a person with no corner to sit in.

 

[RJM]

I can only repeat that there have been thousands of fringe theories about Jesus over the 2000 years since he lived, and all of them manage to find support by selective picking from the gospels about what 'could have' happened. But all of them reject the overall drive of the New Testament, which pivots on the death on the cross, imo

 

[badger]

I can only repeat that there have been thousands of fringe theories about Jesus over the 2000 years since he lived, and all of them manage to find support by selective picking from the gospels about what 'could have' happened. But all of them reject the overall drive of the New Testament, which pivots on the death on the cross, imo

Yes, there will have been so many differing theories, and fringe theories... many thousands of them. I have read that there are thousands of different Creeds within Christianity , not that I could name more than a few.

But I do believe in 'Individual Investigation before Institutional Indoctrination' which is probably how I found my way to where I am.
I do write about my beliefs about Jesus but I would always acknowledge other beliefs and ideas, as long as they are not self righteously judgemental or controlling of other folks.

 

[RJM]

I have always wondered whether the spear thrust might have saved his life.
The lungs could slowly fill with fluid during a crucifixion and to Lance the lung low down could drain it.

Ok, @badger
So -- back to the spear thrust?

Spearing by a soldier while still nailed to the cross would seem like quite a drastic way to drain the lungs of fluid? Could it not wait until he was down from the cross, and be performed properly by a physician? Jesus probably was not on the cross long enough for a fluid build up in his lungs to be life threatening?

Piercing the lung with a spear would be a very serious life-threatening wound; it would risk infection, the major killer in those days, and perhaps rupturing the intestine and diaphragm or other internal organs?

Most anyone pierced through the lung(s) by a spear would require an emergency operation to save life, with a not great chance of survival, especially 2000 years ago.

Also if Jesus was speared while still alive, he would have to be conspicuously losing blood when he was taken down. It would be obvious he was still alive because corpses don't bleed, as the theory stipulates. It being the whole pivot of the theory?

 

[RJM]

At risk of repetition: the point about blood and water coming from the spear wound after Jesus had died, medical evidence allows for it, explained earlier in this thread:

There is medical evidence that blood and water would come out from the pericardial sac around the heart of a crucified person:

When they came to Jesus, He was already dead so they did not break His legs (John 19:33). Instead, the soldiers pierced His side (John 19:34) to assure that He was dead. In doing this, it is reported that “blood and water came out” (John 19:34), referring to the watery fluid surrounding the heart and lungs.

http://ronaldvhuggins.blogspot.com/2015/10/blood-and-water-pouring-from-jesuss.html
... the Ahmadiyyah representative, who was himself a doctor, insisted that the reference to blood and water coming out of Jesus's side could not indicate death, since, as every reader of good mystery stories knows, corpses don't bleed. So I put the question to Dr. Rob Cheeley, an old freind who runs a large medical work in the far east: "Question. The coming forth of blood and water in John 19:34. Corpses don't bleed. What do you see going on there?"

Here is his answer:

Yes, corpses don't bleed. However, fluids (basically blood OR water) gather in various spaces in the body if the death being suffered moves them there. So the idea that this is possible is not a problem at all. But then one must explain, in relation to HOW Christ died and WHERE He was stabbed with the spear, whether or not there should have been blood and water there, given the sort of death He suffered.

One thing to make clear in your mind as you seek to understand it, is that the diaphragm separates the chest cavity from the abdominal cavity. They are absolutely separated (unless the spear traversed from the abdominal cavity up through and into the chest cavity--a third possibility). So, then there are 3 different possibilities for the wound of the spear from which the blood and water came:

1) chest cavity wound (the blade went into the space outside the lung, might have gone into the lung, might have gone into the sack around the heart or the heart itself);
2) abdominal cavity wound (the blade went into the area which holds one's bowels, liver, spleen, bladder, kidneys);
3) both cavities pierced.

Most people who tackle this explanation say that the spear went into his thoracic (chest) cavity. I don't know why they say that. The bible says 'His side'. So it is hard to say. However, it does make more sense that the soldier would have done it as a diagnostic. If so, then the chest cavity makes more sense. Piercing the abdominal cavity really means nothing and diagnoses nothing, as one could be dead or alive and that action wouldn't really tell you anything. But what happens when one pierces the chest would be rather diagnostic ... etc
Read full article

Jesus couldn't have been dead for long. The piercing with the lance was deliberate; it was done to ensure that if Jesus was not dead, he definitely would be after a spear through the lung(s) and heart

If the intention was to bring Jesus down alive, why the spear thrust? It makes no sense, imo

EDIT
Again, to clarify the argument -- the issue is not about whether one accepts or believes the spear thrust happened, but that it is used in this thread as a proof

 

[Namaste Jesus]

I don't sweat minor detail flubs in the Bible. To me that's like expending all your energy trying to figure out why there's a maple leaf in a pine forest and completely ignoring the grandeur before you.

As with any recounted text, there will be minor inconsistencies. Especially one that's been through multiple translations like the Bible. It's the overall story and lesson behind the text that's the important thing and in order to grasp that, you can't reject a single verse.

Very often in the Bible, the true meaning of one verse is dependent upon the verse that came before or after it and in some cases, the overall meaning can't be fully grasped without reading the entire thing. So cherry picking the Bible, rejecting this verse or that verse, taking things out of context, all of these things can adversely affect a chapter's meaning as we've witnessed in this thread.

The Bible however, provides us with more than one witness in most cases, so it's easy to tell when other passages have been misrepresented or manipulated.

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

Did Christ Die on the Cross?
A group of German scientists had been making investigations regarding the shroud of Jesus for the last eight years. The results of their research have been recently made available to the press.

The two-thousand-year-old winding sheet of Christ has been found in the Italian town of Turin. It bears the impressions of Christ’s body. The scientists have informed the Pope about the discovery. But the Pope is silent. The discovery brings to light a vital secret of the religious history of the Catholic Church.

With the help of the art of photography, scientists have tried to prove that the resurrection, which was regarded as a miracle by the people for the past two thousand years, was in fact a natural physiological phenomenon. They have conclusively proved that Christ did not die on the cross. The issue of Christ’s shroud has been under discussion for the last one thousand years. This cloth was sent to Constantinople in 438 A.D. by Queen Endoxi. It was originally found near the catacombs.

It remained in Constantinople for seven hundred years. Finally, De La Roche took it away with him after an attack on Constantinople. When the fire broke out, the cloth was in a silver box. As a result of the melting of silver, it became slightly indistinct. But the marks of Christ’s body were still visible. The people of France earned a large sum of money by displaying this cloth. From France, it was taken to Turin, and there it was taken out for exhibition after every thirty-three years. In 1898 A.D. an Italian advocate looked at the negative in the light of the sun, he was astounded to find that it bore an exact likeness to Christ.

When the negative was printed, it showed the face of the man ( Jesus) whom no one had seen for the past 1900 years. In 1931 A.D., when the cloth was again displayed, Guiseppe Enrie, a photographer, took another photograph of the cloth with the help of bulbs operating at 6,000 and 20,000 volts supply in the presence of an important dignitary of the Church. This photograph brought to light a sensational fact and demonstrated for the second time what Pia had already shown. The picture bears an exact likeness to the face and body contours which the Church, for the last two thousand years, has been describing as those of Christ.

When a man looks at the photograph which has been reproduced in the book Das Linnen Kurt Berna Stuttgart by Hanas Naber Verlage, he can easily understand the reaction of the Church. Pope Pius IX remarked: “This picture has not been made by any human hand.” The scientists declare that the cloth and history both confirm that it is the picture of Christ. The manufacture and texture of the cloth show that it is the sort of cloth that was found at Pompeii. The double marks on the cloth show that one half of the cloth was wrapped around the body of Christ, and the other half was used to cover his head. The ointment applied to Christ’s body, together with the heat of the body reproduced the impressions of Christ’s body on the cloth.

The fresh blood of Christ as absorbed into the cloth also left marks on it. The photograph clearly shows the marks made by the crown of thorns on the base of the head and the forehead of Christ, the swollen right cheek of Christ, the deep spear mark on the right side, the bloodstains due to blood flowing from the wounds caused by nails, and the marks on the back caused by friction with the cross. But the most astonishing fact is that in the negative, the two closed eyes of Christ seem as if they are open.

The photograph also reveals that the nails were not struck on the palms but on the hard joints of the wrists. Another thing that becomes clear is that the spear did not touch the heart of Christ. The Bible says that Christ gave up the ghost, but the scientists insist that the heart had not stopped functioning. It is also observed that if Christ had remained lifeless on the cross for an hour, the blood would have coagulated and become dry, as such no blood marks would have been left on the cloth.

But the fact that the blood was absorbed in the cloth shows that Christ was alive when he was taken down from the cross. I may add here that this sensational discovery of the German scientists merely confirms what was stated by Holy Quran fourteen centuries ago. The Holy Quran declares that Jesus had not died on the cross:

 

[badger]

Ok, @badger
So -- back to the spear thrust?

Spearing by a soldier while still nailed to the cross would seem like quite a drastic way to drain the lungs of fluid? Could it not wait until he was down from the cross, and be performed properly by a physician? Jesus probably was not on the cross long enough for a fluid build up in his lungs to be life threatening?

Piercing the lung with a spear would be a very serious life-threatening wound; it would risk infection, the major killer in those days, and perhaps rupturing the intestine and diaphragm or other internal organs?

Most anyone pierced through the lung(s) by a spear would require an emergency operation to save life, with a not great chance of survival, especially 2000 years ago.

Also if Jesus was speared while still alive, he would have to be conspicuously losing blood when he was taken down. It would be obvious he was still alive because corpses don't bleed, as the theory stipulates. It being the whole pivot of the theory?

Who know....now? Who knew then? The descriptions of that execution all written by folks who were not present or 'read/write' (my version of hearsay).
The claims could be listed imo.
1. Jesus Son of the Father, adored by the people, supported by the people, was pardoned/released/exiled by a worried Prefect.
2. Jesus Son of Man was executed and taken down alive (if I can find I will paste a report by Josephus, how he managed to get three friends down from their crosses, one of them surviving).
3. Jesus Son of Man was excuted, died, was taken down and disappeared during the next 1.5 days.
4. Jesus Son of Man was executed, died, but being the God who created this whole universe......... such power that he could resurrect himself.
5. The mythers.......... as in 'It's all a myth! Everything was a myth!....etc....'

Josephus:- (And there would have been physician in Jerusalem, subject to the Prefect's order, I expect)
josephus (b. 37 C.E.) is our best literary source for the practice of crucifixion in Palestine during the Greco-Roman period. As a general in command of the Jewish forces of Galilee in the Great Revolt against Rome (66-73 C.E.), he reports his attempts to save the lives of three crucified captives by appealing directly to the Roman general Titus. One survived the cross under a physician’s care, the other two could not be saved.

Life 76

And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered.

 

[badger]

Did Christ Die on the Cross?
A group of German scientists had been making investigations regarding the shroud of Jesus for the last eight years. The results of their research have been recently made available to the press. The two-thousand-year-old winding sheet of Christ has been found in the Italian town of Turin. It bears the impressions of Christ’s body. The scientists have informed the Pope about the discovery. But the Pope is silent. The discovery brings to light a vital secret of the religious history of the Catholic Church. With the help of the art of photography, scientists have tried to prove that the resurrection, which was regarded as a miracle by the people for the past two thousand years, was in fact a natural physiological phenomenon. They have conclusively proved that Christ did not die on the cross. The issue of Christ’s shroud has been under discussion for the last one thousand years. This cloth was sent to Constantinople in 438 A.D. by Queen Endoxi. It was originally found near the catacombs. It remained in Constantinople for seven hundred years. Finally, De La Roche took it away with him after an attack on Constantinople. When the fire broke out, the cloth was in a silver box. As a result of the melting of silver, it became slightly indistinct. But the marks of Christ’s body were still visible. The people of France earned a large sum of money by displaying this cloth. From France, it was taken to Turin, and there it was taken out for exhibition after every thirty-three years. In 1898 A.D. an Italian advocate looked at the negative in the light of the sun, he was astounded to find that it bore an exact likeness to Christ. When the negative was printed, it showed the face of the man ( Jesus) whom no one had seen for the past 1900 years. In 1931 A.D., when the cloth was again displayed, Guiseppe Enrie, a photographer, took another photograph of the cloth with the help of bulbs operating at 6,000 and 20,000 volts supply in the presence of an important dignitary of the Church. This photograph brought to light a sensational fact and demonstrated for the second time what Pia had already shown. The picture bears an exact likeness to the face and body contours which the Church, for the last two thousand years, has been describing as those of Christ. When a man looks at the photograph which has been reproduced in the book Das Linnen Kurt Berna Stuttgart by Hanas Naber Verlage, he can easily understand the reaction of the Church. Pope Pius IX remarked: “This picture has not been made by any human hand.” The scientists declare that the cloth and history both confirm that it is the picture of Christ. The manufacture and texture of the cloth show that it is the sort of cloth that was found at Pompeii. The double marks on the cloth show that one half of the cloth was wrapped around the body of Christ, and the other half was used to cover his head. The ointment applied to Christ’s body, together with the heat of the body reproduced the impressions of Christ’s body on the cloth. The fresh blood of Christ as absorbed into the cloth also left marks on it. The photograph clearly shows the marks made by the crown of thorns on the base of the head and the forehead of Christ, the swollen right cheek of Christ, the deep spear mark on the right side, the bloodstains due to blood flowing from the wounds caused by nails, and the marks on the back caused by friction with the cross. But the most astonishing fact is that in the negative, the two closed eyes of Christ seem as if they are open. The photograph also reveals that the nails were not struck on the palms but on the hard joints of the wrists. Another thing that becomes clear is that the spear did not touch the heart of Christ. The Bible says that Christ gave up the ghost, but the scientists insist that the heart had not stopped functioning. It is also observed that if Christ had remained lifeless on the cross for an hour, the blood would have coagulated and become dry, as such no blood marks would have been left on the cloth. But the fact that the blood was absorbed in the cloth shows that Christ was alive when he was taken down from the cross. I may add here that this sensational discovery of the German scientists merely confirms what was stated by Holy Quran fourteen centuries ago. The Holy Quran declares that Jesus had not died on the cross:

That's an old chestnut!
So you believe absolutely that this cloth really really was the cloth that Jesus was really really wrapped in? You have to believe that absolutely in order to be certain that it proves that Jesus was Crucified and lived....... Most Christians have never taken much notice of this cloth at all after it was discovered not to be old enough.

....all that writing........

 

[RJM]

Who know....now? Who knew then? The descriptions of that execution all written by folks who were not present or 'read/write' (my version of hearsay).
The claims could be listed imo.
1. Jesus Son of the Father, adored by the people, supported by the people, was pardoned/released/exiled by a worried Prefect.
2. Jesus Son of Man was executed and taken down alive (if I can find I will paste a report by Josephus, how he managed to get three friends down from their crosses, one of them surviving).
3. Jesus Son of Man was excuted, died, was taken down and disappeared during the next 1.5 days.
4. Jesus Son of Man was executed, died, but being the God who created this whole universe......... such power that he could resurrect himself.
5. The mythers.......... as in 'It's all a myth! Everything was a myth!....etc....'

Josephus:- (And there would have been physician in Jerusalem, subject to the Prefect's order, I expect)
josephus (b. 37 C.E.) is our best literary source for the practice of crucifixion in Palestine during the Greco-Roman period. As a general in command of the Jewish forces of Galilee in the Great Revolt against Rome (66-73 C.E.), he reports his attempts to save the lives of three crucified captives by appealing directly to the Roman general Titus. One survived the cross under a physician’s care, the other two could not be saved.

Life 76

And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered.

None of this addresses the spear thrust?

 

[badger]

None of this addresses the spear thrust?

True........
How can it? As I wrote earlier 'Who knows..... Who knew then?'
My point was that nobody who was intimately involved in crucifying Jesus, taking him down, taking him away........ who ever wrote a word or was recorded as saying anything that has survived. And I certainly don't trust the report of 'Mother and most loved by the cross'.
There is no 'It's certain that nobody survived a sword thrust'.
There is no 'It can be shown for sure that.....'

Nobody can prove anything. But if you have faith then I acknowledge it.

 

[RJM]

Nobody can prove anything. But if you have faith then I acknowledge it.

I think this avoids the issue. My comments are about the spear thrust used in relation to the thread title to 'prove' Jesus survived -- when in fact it proves he did not, or at least greatly reduces the chance that he survived.

The 'proof' does the opposite of what it's supposed to do. Regardless of whether one accepts the gospel of John -- the gospel of John is used here as authorative.

Nothing to do with faith. I rest my case

 

[Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi]

I want humble request to those who wish to read the comparative religions, please read this book. Here is a free download.
https://www.alislam.org/book/revelation-rationality-knowledge-truth/