Why do you need Jesus? He saves you from what?

muhammad_isa

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Jesus Christ was not a prophet
Jews and Muslims [and others] cannot accept a "god-man" as Messiah.

Christ or Messiah means "annointed one" as in a Jewish King .. Jewish Kings are prophets. :)

Orthodox Christianity evolved to be what it is for various reasons.
The Roman Empire was vast .. it existed long before Jesus appeared.
The Roman Empire was not founded on a religious basis, as was the Jewish community in Jerusalem.
 

RJM

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Jews and Muslims [and others] cannot accept a "god-man" as Messiah.

Christ or Messiah means "annointed one" as in a Jewish King .. Jewish Kings are prophets. :)

Orthodox Christianity evolved to be what it is for various reasons.
The Roman Empire was vast .. it existed long before Jesus appeared.
The Roman Empire was not founded on a religious basis, as was the Jewish community in Jerusalem.
Where in the Bible does God refer to Jesus as a prophet?
 

RJM

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Muslims [and others] cannot accept a "god-man" as Messiah.
But you accept a virgin born and sinless 'man-man' who is taken-up alive to heaven and is waiting to return?
 

RJM

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Peter does
This one?

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 16:13-20&version=NIV

He doesn't call Jesus a prophet ...
 

muhammad_isa

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54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

- Matthew 13 -
 

Longfellow

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Acts 3:19-23

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.

So it is God Himself after all, calling Jesus a prophet, because Peter is quoting what God said through Moses.
 
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RJM

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Acts 3:19-23
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

- Matthew 13 -
Ok. I accept these two references in context. Thank you

But Christ was certainly more than (just) an Abrahamic prophet
 

RJM

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Was he referring to Jesus?
Moses said God would send another prophet after him. Of course there were several prophets after Moses. However in the above Acts 3:19-23 Luke has Peter saying that Jesus is the prophet referred to by Moses
 

muhammad_isa

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But Christ was certainly more than (just) an Abrahamic prophet
Yeah we know.. Many people say He is God. :)
A god-man .. a messiah-god.

Don't you find it strange that God sends many, many prophets to "teach us in the synagogue",
and then decides to "come himself in the flesh"?
I do. I guess you consider it as some kind of "master plan", to teach there is only One God Yahweh, and then confuse us all by "pretending" to be a man, after all.

No disrespect to Christianity intended.
I'm just not a trinitarian, like Isaac Newton wasn't.
 
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RJM

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Yeah we know.. Many people say He is God. :)
A god-man .. a messiah-god.

Don't you find it strange that God sends many, many prophets to "teach us in the synagogue",
and then decides to "come himself in the flesh"?
I do. I guess you consider it as some kind of "master plan", to teach there is only One God Yahweh, and then confuse us all by "pretending" to be a man, after all.

No disrespect to Christianity intended.
I'm just not a trinitarian, like Isaac Newton wasn't.
Ok, so you accept Jesus's words here from Matthew in the New Testament:
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

- Matthew 13 -
But you do not Jesus's words here from Matthew in the New Testament:
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
(Matt 16)
 
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Aupmanyav

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Moses was talking about a person from among the Israelite. What he said does not apply to Arabs and Iranians or Indians (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) or Americans (Joseph Smith).
God of Abraham will never select a non-Israelite. He is a God only to Israelite.

"But every woman shall borrow of her neighbor, and of her that sojourner in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians." Exodus 20:1.22
What is this? Is God asking the Israelite women to deceive their Egyptian neighbors?
 
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Thomas

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For the sake of broader discussion –

Although He is never literally declared as either Prophet, Priest, or King, He in fact ticks all three boxes as it were, according to the understanding of those terms in his times.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel is guided by the three mentioned above.

The role of a Prophet is that of an oracle, to speak the word of God.
Jesus did that.

The role of the Priest was to mediate between God and man.
Jesus did that.

Moreover, the priesthood offered sacrifice as required under the law. The High Priest alone offered the annual sacrifice on the Day of Atonement on behalf of the whole people.
Jesus became that sacrifice, once and for all.

It was never God's wish that Israel should have a king. God allowed it because the people required it – to be like other nations. (cf 1 Samuel 8:7).
Jesus is King, but His kingdom is not of this world.

+++

It has also been noted that that apostles, likewise, although on a smaller scale, fulfil the three offices.
 

Cino

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Jews and Muslims [and others] cannot accept a "god-man" as Messiah.

Christ or Messiah means "annointed one" as in a Jewish King .. Jewish Kings are prophets. :)

Orthodox Christianity evolved to be what it is for various reasons.
The Roman Empire was vast .. it existed long before Jesus appeared.
The Roman Empire was not founded on a religious basis, as was the Jewish community in Jerusalem.

Not sure about the prophet status of Jewish kings. Weren't they anointed by prophets? Didn't they tend to clash with the prophets?

The Roman Empire had a civic cult/religion at its foundations, which was later replaced by Christianity. The "slot" it was placed in was already there.
 
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muhammad_isa

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Not sure about the prophet status of Jewish kings. Weren't they anointed by prophets? Didn't they tend to clash with the prophets?
Not all "Jewish Kings" were prophets, no.

The Roman Empire had a civic cult/religion at its foundations, which was later replaced by Christianity. The "slot" it was placed in was already there.
Yes, and that was half the trouble.
The Roman Empire "adopted" Jesus into its belief system, and enforced creed etc.
 

Thomas

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The Roman Empire had a civic cult/religion at its foundations, which was later replaced by Christianity. The "slot" it was placed in was already there.
As we all know I disagree with @muhammad_isa's reading of Christian history.

The situation vis-a-vis Rome was not so much that Rome adopted Christianity, as Christianity, from around the 6th century the hierarchy began – erroneously IMHO – to assume the worldly trappings of authority. Bishops and Cardinals live like princes – so now we have mansions and palaces and the acquisition of enormous wealth.

Not all of it is corrupt, of course. Famously, when Francis was sent to the electoral college after the retirement of Benedict, his team bought him a new pair of shoes because his were worn through. When he arrived, he chose to live at the Domus Sanctae Marthae (the house of St Martha), much more low-key than the papal apartments in the palace. The US Ambassador described the residence as "comfortable but by no means deluxe".

But I do think it was not quite the right way to go ...
 

Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

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Was Jesus The Only Begotten Son Of God?

In the book of Psalms 2:7 we find “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” David, in this verse, is saying that God had told him he was the son of God and God has begotten him. Clearly Jesus is not the only begotten son of God.

Of course, one could say that although Jesus was not the only begotten son of God, he had no human father in contrast to David who had a human father. That is true! Since Jesus had no human father it makes the relationship between him and God a closer one. The question is what about Adam? Adam had no human father nor a human mother, and according to the Bible he too was the son of God.

The Bible says, “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.” (Luke3:23) The Bible goes on to mention the supposed genealogy of Jesus Christ. At the end of this genealogy the Bible comes to Adam, and it says, “Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” (Luke 3:38).

So Adam is also the son of God. According to the assumption: “because Jesus had no human father then he is closer to God than David who had a human father,” we can safely conclude that Adam is better than Jesus because he did not have a human father or mother.

The truth is Jesus and Adam do not differ in God’s sight. They were a mere creation of God. The Holy Qur’an says in clear terms,

“Verily, similitude of Jesus with God is as the similitude of Adam; He created him out of dust then said He unto him BE, and he became.” (3:59).
 

Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi

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Who Was Jesus If Not The Literal Son Of God?
According to the Bible in Matthew 21:11 “And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.” This was Jesus. He was a prophet of God. He was sent like other prophets to deliver the message of his ONE and only ONE God (glory be to Him). Also, in Luke 24:19 the Bible says “And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.”

Jesus was a true messenger of God Almighty. He was sent by Him to deliver His will. The Bible says in John 5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.” These are the true characteristics of a prophet. They do as they are commanded.

They are sent to deliver a message, and the only difference between them and other humans is their utmost righteousness, “mighty in deed and word” (Luke 24:19). They are the best of all the people of their time. They are the only ones who could bear and act upon the commandments of God completely and fully. They are loved by God because of that, and their nearness to God comes from that.

The same applies to all other prophets. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, Jonah, Moses, Jesus, Jonas, Muhammad and all the other prophets shared the same qualities. The qualities of those who could withstand all forms of tribulations in God’s name. They all fully abided by what God has commanded them. The Qur’an says,

“Say: (O’ Our Apostle Muhammad!) (unto the People) ‘We believe in God, and what hath been sent down to us, and what hath been sent down to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord, we make no difference between any of them, and we unto Him are Muslims” (3:84).

(Note that “what was given to Moses, and Jesus” is not the same as the current Bible written by Paul, John, Luke, Matthew, and so on. Rather they were the true books of Moses and Jesus. These are not to be found today.)
 
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