Why do you need Jesus? He saves you from what?

Cino

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Yes, it is all about deeds..
Denial of Almighty God leads to a different standard of morality.
That affects our whole life, just as belief affects our whole life.

What makes you think denial is the same as disbelief?
 

muhammad_isa

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I am just as good or bad as any theist.
After death, there is nothing to find and no one to find.
Not according to Christian faith.
What would be the point in faith, if it had absolutely no effect?
I can see the difference between a church-goer and an atheist.

To start with, atheists keep popping up on Christian forums, telling them that their belief is based on fiction,
when they have no knowledge of that.
It seems as if they don't want people to be saved .. they'd rather people be drug addicts or something. ;)
 

muhammad_isa

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After death, there is nothing to find and no one to find.
Accept the reality, my friend. The rest all are stories.
No, they are not "just stories".

Take Hitler, for example.
Your belief means that Hitler escaped answering for the suffering that he caused others,
by committing suicide.

The correct Christian belief, is that he will not escape judgement.
Divine justice is perfect, Holy.
You can ask @Thomas if you don't believe me.
 

muhammad_isa

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So is Divine Mercy. I am a friend of apokatastasis.
I did not say that Hitler cannot enter heaven [the paradise], eventually.
I merely stated that he is very likely to suffer after his death, according to orthodox Christian theology.

..unless of course, Almighty God agreed with the holocaust etc. ..
..which I find despicable, personally.
 

Cino

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I think you are just being pedantic, here..

Maybe I was too terse. What I meant was, to deny something requires some acknowledgement of its existence, some active act of ignoring evidence.

I can be in denial of a bald spot on my head, for example. It is evidently there, and I can admit or deny its existence.

Disbelief, on the other hand, is a very different mental posture. I can't disbelieve a bald spot on my head, only deny it once I felt with my hand or used a mirror, but I am in disbelief, not denial, that the invisible pink unicorn has a bald spot. Disbelief doesn't require me to ignore any evidence.
 

Aupmanyav

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Not according to Christian faith.
What would be the point in faith, if it had absolutely no effect?
I can see the difference between a church-goer and an atheist.

To start with, atheists keep popping up on Christian forums, telling them that their belief is based on fiction,
when they have no knowledge of that.
It seems as if they don't want people to be saved .. they'd rather people be drug addicts or something. ;)
That reminds me that I am in Christian forum. I retreat. Not a place to explain my view. Sorry.
 

muhammad_isa

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..to deny something requires some acknowledgement of its existence, some active act of ignoring evidence..
That is true, but not really to do with the point I was making.
Disbelief/denial leads to a different lifestyle than a practicing Christian.
 

Ahanu

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No, they are not "just stories".

Take Hitler, for example.
Your belief means that Hitler escaped answering for the suffering that he caused others,
by committing suicide.

The correct Christian belief, is that he will not escape judgement.
Divine justice is perfect, Holy.
You can ask @Thomas if you don't believe me.
Great point. There is no justice if atheism is true.
 

RJM

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That is true, but not really to do with the point I was making.
Disbelief/denial leads to a different lifestyle than a practicing Christian.
Some UK statistics:

Only 30% of UK prisoners profess no religion

32% of prisoners in England and Wales on 30 June 2010 professed no religion, the identical figure to March 2000, although the prison population had increased by 30% during the course of the decade.

24% of prisoners in 2010 claimed to be Anglicans, 17% Roman Catholics, 7% other Christians, 12% Muslims, and 5% of other faiths.

The percentage of Muslim prisoners has almost doubled since 2000, partly reflecting the natural growth of Muslims in society at large, and partly the concentration of criminals among young and economically disadvantaged people, who are disproportionately Muslim. 59% of Muslim prisoners were aged 15-29 compared with 47% of all prisoners.

Roman Catholics were likewise over-represented among the prison population, relative to the community as a whole, albeit their proportion of prisoners has not changed since 2000. This is a long-standing phenomenon and has recently been subject to detailed investigation in Scotland.


60% of Scottish Prison Population are Religious
As at 30 June 2013 just over 4,600 prisoners (58% of the prison population) in Scotland indicated that they held religious beliefs. Of these, 93% were Christian (of various denominations). Muslim prisoners accounted for 4.4%. Together Buddhist, Sikh, Jewish, Hindu and other religions accounted for 2.7% of the religious prison population. Just over 3,270 prisoners (42% of the prison population) held no religious beliefs.

The proportion of Muslims among the prison population was greater than that amongst the general population. According to the 2011 Census29, Muslims accounted for around 1.2% of the Scottish population aged 15 and over. In prison the proportion was over twice that at 2.5%.

Aside from the “other” grouping, no other religion had a higher proportion of representation in prisons than among the general population. Individuals with no religious identity accounted for around 41% of the general population and just over 41% of the prison population.

27% of Prisoners in London Jails are Muslims

(I couldn't find more recent UK statistics at short notice)

America:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_United_States_prisons
A Pew study found that the majority of US inmates are Protestant Christians

Atheists make up only 0.1 of US Prison Population
There were 139,002 people in the U.S. federal prison system last year, and exactly 143 of them identified as atheists. Those self-described atheists made up a mere 0.1% of the federal prison population.
 
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muhammad_isa

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@RJM
Your stats are irrelevant to my point..
I said "Disbelief/denial leads to a different lifestyle than a practicing Christian."
..just as a point of interest, 25% of pop. identified as atheists in the 2011 UK census.

Furthermore, adultery is not illegal in the UK .. etc. etc.
 

RJM

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@RJM
Your stats are irrelevant to my point..
I said "Disbelief/denial leads to a different lifestyle than a practicing Christian."
..just as a point of interest, 25% of pop. identified as atheists in the 2011 UK census.

Furthermore, adultery is not illegal in the UK .. etc. etc.
Ok. I think I was wrong in using the term 'atheist' to include people who just don't think of themselves as belonging to any religion*. The word 'atheist' has come to mean more -- it now signifies a purposeful stance?

(*I have changed it on edit)
 
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Aupmanyav

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Your belief means that Hitler escaped answering for the suffering that he caused others,
by committing suicide.

The correct Christian belief, is that he will not escape judgement.
Divine justice is perfect, Holy.
You can ask @Thomas if you don't believe me.
I am not a Christian or a theist to believe that Hitler's soul is now in an eternal hell and is being tortured or that hot oil is being poured on his head till his brain melts. For me, his defeat and suicide was his punishment.
Oh, why did I return to a Christian forum?! I should have been more careful.
 

muhammad_isa

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I am not a Christian or a theist to believe that Hitler's soul is now in an eternal hell and is being tortured or that hot oil is being poured on his head till his brain melts.
Yes .. that is not a nice thought.
Neither is it nice to think about how people have suffered in this life, at the hands of tyrants.

God or no God, reality can be very harsh. ☹️
 

RJM

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Or eternally understanding and re-living the suffering I have caused to others? As if each one of them was me. They are gone. For them, their suffering has come to an end, but for me their suffering lives on ...

How will Hitler suffer, about the pain he has caused, if there is an afterlife when he gets a conscience -- empathy -- whatever the word?
 
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muhammad_isa

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And your belief is simply that, your belief, no better than anyone else's
Yes, we all have our beliefs.
I think a lot of people think that people often believe in God and an afterlife as it gives them comfort and hope.
That could well be true, but it can work both ways.

I have believed in God since I can remember. It has had a profound impact on my life.
Faith has motivated me to achieve things I could never have achieved without it.
..but alas, faith rises and falls, and when it falls it can bring despair. ☹️
 

Aupmanyav

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To start with, atheists keep popping up on Christian forums, telling them that their belief is based on fiction, when they have no knowledge of that. It seems as if they don't want people to be saved .. they'd rather people be drug addicts or something. ;)
Just to point out that Muslims also visit Christian Forums. I have not used any drug in my life, not even 'Bhang' (Marijuana drink) which is popular around here. So, I do not need any saving. I do like alcohol in reasonable quantity.
 

RJM

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Perhaps an 'enlightened' soul suffers so much from hurting another that it becomes impossible to do so?

It hurts me more than it hurts you, literally?
 
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