Why do you need Jesus? He saves you from what?

muhammad_isa said:
I think some people see discussion of creed as irreverent.
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Discussing creed no, but once addressed, posting the same argument over and over on multiple threads makes it quite irrelevant and gives the impression one is more interested in discrediting than discussing.
 
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RJM said:
Do you think you are a superior and better, more moral and caring person than someone who does not believe in God in the same (Muslim) way that you do?
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Don't make it all about me..

I think that a believer should reflect what he professes to believe.
None of us are perfect, but if you can't see any difference between a disbeliever and a believer, in the way they live their lives, then there is something fundamentally wrong, imo.
 
Namaste Jesus said:
Discussing creed no, but once addressed, posting the same argument over and over on multiple threads makes it quite irrelevant..
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I don't disagree with you..
I just get involved with a conversation already in progress, and then get the blame ;)
 
muhammad_isa said:
None of us are perfect, but if you can't see any difference between a disbeliever and a believer, in the way they live their lives, then there is something fundamentally wrong, imo.
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Hey, I don't even understand disbelief myself, but I've know some atheists with higher moral fiber than a lot of so called believers, Christian or otherwise.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
:rolleyes: No .. this is the Christianity forum, isn't it?
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Ok. So your take on Jesus makes you a better, more moral and superior person to anyone with a different take?

Than a person who accepts the Pauline and Johannine writings, and the death on the cross and resurrection, and 'upon this rock I will build my church' passage, etc?*

*They are condemned to hell
 
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RJM said:
Ok. So your take on Jesus makes you a better, more moral and superior person to anyone with a different take?
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Nothing to do with "my take"
I said "if you can't see any difference between a disbeliever and a believer, in the way they live their lives, then there is something fundamentally wrong, imo"

Your original post seems to be saying that there is no difference between a believer and a disbeliever (in God), re morality etc...
Have I got that wrong .. or what?
 
Ijaz Ahmad Ahmadi said:
God reveals to Isaiah to tell his people: “Come now, and let us reason together.” (Isaiah 1:18).
So, we doing this in this forum.
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OK, here's my reasoning:
"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down ('ibārah), the implied purport (ishārah), the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world (latā'if), and the exalted spiritual doctrines (haqā'iq). The literal statement is for the ordinary believers ('awāmm). The implied purport is the concern of the elite (khawāss). The hidden meanings pertain to the Friends of God (awliyā). The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets (abbiyā)."
This was said by There is a statement made by Imam Jafar Sadiq (d. 765CE). (History of Islamic philosophy, Henry Corbin. Kegan Paul International. pp. 1–14.)

"Another explanation has it: the literal statement is addressed to the hearing, the allusion to the spiritual understanding, the hidden meanings are directed to the contemplative vision, and the exalted doctrines concern the realisation of an integral spiritual Islam." (ibid.)

As the Prophet himself (pbuh) has said, there is more than one way of reading and interpreting sacred texts.
 
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muhammad_isa said:
"The core of any genuine Christian denomination is the belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that anyone putting their trust and faith in him is forgiven by God."
By the above definition, I'm proud to say that I'm a Christian. :)
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And by the same token I am proud to say I am a Muslim.

We are brothers, and should not be at odds with each other.

There is a higher way to a peaceful resolution in these discussions, which I shall seek, Inshā'Allāh.
 
D'you know, when I wrote 'As the Prophet himself (pbuh) has said,' in the above post, I was going to type 'himself' with an uppercase H ... that set me thinking ...
 
I said:
Your original post seems to be saying that there is no difference between a believer and a disbeliever (in God), re morality etc...
Have I got that wrong .. or what?
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@RJM I'm still none the wiser. :)
 
muhammad_isa said:
@RJM I'm still none the wiser. :)
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I think it's complex. Nothing is ever that simple. Existing secular democracies have a far better record of justice and transparency and protecting the weak than existing theocracies.
 
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'Morality' needs to have a social application. It needs to be practical, not just there because someone's holy book says so?
 
RJM said:
I think it's complex. Nothing is ever that simple. Existing secular democracies have a far better record of justice and protecting the weak than existing theocracies.
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With respect, I didn't ask what you thought about theocracies..
I refer to your post..

"Do you think being a Christian makes you a superior and better, more moral and caring person than someone who does not believe in God..?"

My answer would be that "if it doesn't, then the teachings in the Gospel are worthless" :)
i.e. everybody is following them regardless. [ which they are not, imo ]
 
muhammad_isa said:
My answer would be that "if it doesn't, then the teachings in the Gospel are worthless"
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Christ came for the weak and the broken. He came to heal souls and to forgive sin. He came for the soul. Of course a person who submits to Christ will not want to hurt others, but so do a lot of people who do not outwardly profess to follow Christ. Perhaps there are more good and moral people who do not profess a religious belief, than those who do? Like I said, it's complex and the response has to be nuanced.
 
RJM said:
..Of course a person who submits to Christ will not want to hurt others, but so do a lot of people who do not outwardly profess to follow Christ. Perhaps there are more good and moral people who do not profess a religious belief, than those who do?
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An atheist is a person who does not believe in "gods" .. that includes the Bible.
That means that they do not obtain their values of morality from God.

..so where do they get them? The society they happen to be in?
Their own self? Where exactly?
 
muhammad_isa said:
"Do you think being a Christian makes you a superior and better, more moral and caring person than someone who does not believe in God..?"
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My full post quote was: Do you think being a Christian makes you a superior and better, more moral and caring person than someone who does not believe in God as you do?
-- As in the fundamentalist Christian concept of God.
 
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