Current suppression of Baha'is in Iran

[RJM]

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And I have a question. sorry if this is not the right place to ask, but since I am new, I don't actually know where to put the questions.

Since we are engaging in conversations in a friendly manner, respectful of each others' points of view, to what extent is it allowed here to share real untrue stuff here and sugar coat them with a layer of truth? and what are the standards to determin if someone is spreading too much wrong information about ANY religious/non religious view?

These are sincere questions. I do believe that as much as it is our responsibility to be good towards one aother as humans, we are also responsible for the words that we spread.

The discussion should try clear up untruths and misconceptions, as it goes along, as you are usefully doing. People read it all and make up their minds

The problem is when it dives into name calling and accusations of lying, etc.

Please use the report button to flag posts you find unacceptable, regardless who wrote them

 

[badger]

Allahu Abha everyone and Hello Badger;

Honestly speaking, Badger, you don’t sound like a sincere person here.

mrym, I didn't read beyond this point.
I'm sad that an Islamic Theocracy has strict laws for all that live there.

Bahá'ís are supposed to keep to the laws of the lands which they live in.

 

[Ahanu]

To ankle gate those ladies for their offences with a 500 yard perimeter is a pretty humane punishment,

To reduce a one year prison sentence to ankle gating up to a few hundred meters from home is hardly a vicious sentence.
That happens here in the UK.

In the UK, the same penalty may be applied but under which conditions and for what kind of people? Some of the people who are ankle gated recently are among my friends. Some of them are men, who have to WORK to feed their family, and now with the 500 mts restriction, some of them have chosen their office as the center which means for a whole one year or so, they cannot get out of their office. Also for a mother to be ankle gated, that means she cannot even go to the market to buy bread or milk. And please enlighten me –cause you seem to be a know it all- for what reason do they have to be punished; for being the agents of Israel? (Cause all accusations lead to this one point). But believe me, if they were spies, the government would show the evidence of it one hundred times every day in national TV channels or the radio. You are free to believe what the government tells you, but you ar not free to judge, cause you have never lived in Iran as a Baha’i. we are not living in stone ages. This is the age when people are asking for equity and kindness. How comes you are mentioning LGBT rights, and again you so easily ignore the rights of a minority in Iran, distorting the facts by your baseless ideas.

Thanks for sharing, @mrym.

 

[Ahanu]

I lived with a Baha'i for 19yrs, knew Bahá'ís, know about Baha'i, know of the good honest Bahá'ís that got outlawed for writing too much about it.
But I'm out of this.....Aup knows as much or more than I do.

I know this because I've seen some of it in England! A senior journalist for a big county newspaper (D.R.) was a strong Bahai and member of the Local Spiritual Assembly (the future Local House of Justice), and when the chairman and other members found out that David was Gay he was ousted from the assembly, discredited within the community, and his voting rights were gone. David had lived for Bahai and couldn't have realised how Bahai would impact upon a community.

I've given an inside perspective about Bahai in the UK and what can happen to Bahais here, in a post on here. You didn't answer that I think?

I can't give my opinion about vague descriptions.

How did they find out he was gay? Surely they were not snooping around his house. How was he discredited? What did the "honest Baha'is" you knew write? How is this related to the persecution of Baha'is in Iran in your mind?

 

[badger]

I can't give my opinion about vague descriptions.
How did they find out he was gay? Surely they were not snooping around his house. How was he discredited?

He was discredited by the chairman of the Spiritual Assembly upon which he had been a member.
He lost his seat and his voting rights, Ahanu. If you are a Bahai then you would know that the only sexual activity recognised in a Bahai World is between married couples. Bahais are banned from any lgbt lifestyles, they cannot cross-dress at all, they must cut their hair to a gender recognised haircut.

So how he got discovered is irrelevant, surely?
Please confirm that what I've written is correct, can you?

What did the "honest Baha'is" you knew write?

But you also wanted the names of honest Bahais outlawed for writing about Bahai?
OK, you obviously need to be taught about such things, please would you find access to and read about these amazing people?
They are all open folks, Bahais who use their own names on the internet, but outlawed because they wrote too much, so I'm told.
One of the most open, wise and well informed Bahais that has posted on another forum, openly names himself as Sen McGlin, should you ever have the chance to read his work you'll learn a lot about Bahai, whoever you are. ( @Aupmanyav .... did I spell his name correctly?)
...John Walbridge.
...Juan Cole.
.... these folks all believe in Bahai, support Bahai, are all out there with their real names ( OK @RJM ?) but were outlawed, shunned, or called 'covenant breakers'....whatever you call it....
...and others........ the above names are amongst the most outstanding Bahai history authorities I have ever read, and afaik are all outlawed for it.
Now.... you've challenged me to be less vague, so I've answered you exactly.

How is this related to the persecution of Baha'is in Iran in your mind?

I know that Iran is very tough on people who do not support its government and people, and I know that Bahais are always getting themselves in to trouble. But when I hear Bahais moan about the Iranian government I immediately wonder whether a Bahai government would be any better, after all, it would have its military and police force and it would enforce its Bahai Laws and punishments vigorously, I feel sure. Certainly outsiders of any kind would have no voting rights or positions of rank within government at any level.

I wouldn't want to be transexual or gay in a Bahai ruled country, for sure. And women wouldn't have the same status as men, would they?

True?

 

[mrym]

You

mrym, I didn't read beyond this point.
I'm sad that an Islamic Theocracy has strict laws for all that live there.

Bahá'ís are supposed to keep to the laws of the lands which they live in.

You know that you did read, but for some reasons you like to say you didn't. Fine.

It is obvious that Baha'is should follow the laws of the country they live in and they already follow the laws in Iran. I, as one, have followed the laws and yet I've been warned and threatened. So, don't talk about what baha'is should do here because you neither know nor want to know. If you want to know more about the extent of injustice towards them, go read my two posts again, this time unbiased. Yet, it seems like you already have your own opinion which you are not interested to change. Good luck with that.

 

[mrym]

You

He was discredited by the chairman of the Spiritual Assembly upon which he had been a member.
He lost his seat and his voting rights, Ahanu. If you are a Bahai then you would know that the only sexual activity recognised in a Bahai World is between married couples. Bahais are banned from any lgbt lifestyles, they cannot cross-dress at all, they must cut their hair to a gender recognised haircut.

So how he got discovered is irrelevant, surely?
Please confirm that what I've written is correct, can you?



But you also wanted the names of honest Bahais outlawed for writing about Bahai?
OK, you obviously need to be taught about such things, please would you find access to and read about these amazing people?
They are all open folks, Bahais who use their own names on the internet, but outlawed because they wrote too much, so I'm told.
One of the most open, wise and well informed Bahais that has posted on another forum, openly names himself as Sen McGlin, should you ever have the chance to read his work you'll learn a lot about Bahai, whoever you are. ( @Aupmanyav .... did I spell his name correctly?)
...John Walbridge.
...Juan Cole.
.... these folks all believe in Bahai, support Bahai, are all out there with their real names ( OK @RJM ?) but were outlawed, shunned, or called 'covenant breakers'....whatever you call it....
...and others........ the above names are amongst the most outstanding Bahai history authorities I have ever read, and afaik are all outlawed for it.
Now.... you've challenged me to be less vague, so I've answered you exactly.


I know that Iran is very tough on people who do not support its government and people, and I know that Bahais are always getting themselves in to trouble. But when I hear Bahais moan about the Iranian government I immediately wonder whether a Bahai government would be any better, after all, it would have its military and police force and it would enforce its Bahai Laws and punishments vigorously, I feel sure. Certainly outsiders of any kind would have no voting rights or positions of rank within government at any level.

I wouldn't want to be transexual or gay in a Bahai ruled country, for sure. And women wouldn't have the same status as men, would they?

True?

How is it that you who are so vigorously standing for the idea that baha'is must follow the laws in Iran (which is right), do not know that each religion has its rules and laws and if you do not follow them you are not considered a member of that religion? There are many instances in Quran and Bible that says if people do this or that, they're doomed for hardship or are not of Me (whoever the prophet of that religion is). So, yes, of course if you do not believe in the highest authoritative voice in our day and age , selected by Abdul Baha, you cannot call yourself a baha'i which is the case for someone like Cole. Of course no one is going to kill or torture him for that as is the case with some other religions, but he has no voting rights etc cause he basically does't even believe in that.

It's easy to find the names of people who have been following this or that religion and are then eliminated from it. Yet, as long as one doesn't have an unbiased mind, one cannot see the truth behind the stories. Sad case!

 

[RabbiO]

mrym, I didn't read beyond this point.

If I take you at your word, and I have no reason to doubt it, you do yourself, the poster, and the rest of the forum, a disservice to ignore the rest of a post simply because you believe that you have been addressed in an unkind manner that you feel misjudges your character or your position.

I think you’re better than that.

 

[badger]

You

You know that you did read, but for some reasons you like to say you didn't. Fine.

That's twice that you've called me out, either as insincere or liar.
I didn't read any further.

 

[badger]

If I take you at your word, and I have no reason to doubt it, you do yourself, the poster, and the rest of the forum, a disservice to ignore the rest of a post simply because you believe that you have been addressed in an unkind manner that you feel misjudges your character or your position.

I think you’re better than that.

Thank you for your judgement, Rabbio.
I'm going to seek the permission of the forum bosses to initiate a thread about the arrests of Bahá'ís in Iran in recent years.

But offer nothing more on here

 

[mrym]

That's twice that you've called me out, either as insincere or liar.
I didn't read any further.

I like Confucius a lot. So, I'll quote him:
"The beginning of wisdom is the ability to call things by their right names."

 

[RJM]

I like Confucius a lot. So, I'll quote him:
"The beginning of wisdom is the ability to call things by their right names."

Please try to avoid personal confrontation. Please try to stay with the issues? Please?

That's twice that you've called me out, either as insincere or liar.
I didn't read any further.

Nevertheless @badger everyone else has read and registered what @mrym has posted. I believe you could/should take notice of her comments?

@Cino will be away next week. Please everybody, this is an important discussion, imo? Let's try to let it run?

 

[RJM]

I like Confucius a lot. So, I'll quote him:
"The beginning of wisdom is the ability to call things by their right names."

What do you mean?

 

[mrym]

Please try to avoid personal confrontation. Please try to stay with the issues? Please?
Nevertheless @badger everyone else has read and registered what @mrym has posted. I believe you could/should take notice of her comments?

@Cino will be away next week. Please everybody, this is an important discussion, imo? Let's try to let it run?

Sure. I apologize if I was too harsh. As you well mentioned, it is an important topic. I see with my own eyes how my Baha'i friends are being executed without a sin everyday so when I hear someone says "it's their own fault" my blood really boils

Then again, I apologize and will keep it cool

 

[RJM]

Sure. I apologize if I was too harsh. As you well mentioned, it is an important topic. I see with my own eyes how my Baha'i friends are being executed without a sin everyday so when I hear someone says "it's their own fault" my blood really boils

Then again, I apologize and will keep it cool

I believe you. To me it's clear Iran persecutes the Baha'i. Clear I'm sure to most others also ...

 

[Cino]

Sure. I apologize if I was too harsh. As you well mentioned, it is an important topic. I see with my own eyes how my Baha'i friends are being executed without a sin everyday so when I hear someone says "it's their own fault" my blood really boils

Understandable.

And yet, to reduce what @badger said to this single point is not appropriate, either.

Please everybody, this is an important discussion, imo? Let's try to let it run?

Maybe start a new thread allowing for a critique of the Baha'i faith, in the more general "Modern Religions" forum, while meeping this one to the subject of persecution of Baha'is in Iran?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Please try to avoid personal confrontation. Please try to stay with the issues? Please?
Nevertheless @badger everyone else has read and registered what @mrym has posted. I believe you could/should take notice of her comments?

@Cino will be away next week. Please everybody, this is an important discussion, imo? Let's try to let it run?

As I offered RJM, it will be difficult to get a reasonable discussion on this topic.

We have done this topic on other forums with the same people and have found no just reasoning was forthcoming.

The issue is, some are determined to find fault with the Baha'i, that is why they comment in the negative, trying to find avenues of doubt, looking for a way to lay blame on the victims, while they themselves have the freedom of full expression.

People are not yet looking for justice. It appears we need more injustices, more calamity, more war, more natural disasters before people ask themselves, what is happening and why?

The why is, that we as one humanity have turned far from God's commands, are divided like never before which commences with the breakdown of the family unit, the fundamental path to a strong community bond, and we are immersed in materialism.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So what are the Laws Baha'i are covered under in Iran, this is what we need to know.

"The Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that "the investigation of individuals' beliefs is forbidden" and that "no one may be molested or taken to task simply for holding a certain belief."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Iran

Also "Iran’s Penal Code has no provisions criminalizing apostasy, as of January 18, 2012."

The issue is, that what happens to the Baha'i is not covered by Law, false charges have to be laid, and fictitious evidence must be presented.

There is really no argument that this happens, the UN has many resolutions calling the leaders if Iran out for unlawful actions. The UN does not do this without knowing the lawful facts of these cases.

If we post the UN resolutions, will that change the the mindset of those that choose to search for blame to lay on the victims? In the past it has not, as we have offered that on other forums as well.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

View attachment 3018

It is each person's responsibility to search truth for themselves. Not to rely on hearsay, half truths, or intended deceptions.

Regards Tony