Well, I'm always drawn to the border zones where the rebels and heretics are. So I care, fwiw.
What is an Azali?
What is a covenant breaker? I recently learned that there are multiple covenants in the Baha'i faith, are they breaking all of them?
Current suppression of Baha'is in Iran
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Well, I'm always drawn to the border zones where the rebels and heretics are. So I care, fwiw.
What is an Azali?
What is a covenant breaker? I recently learned that there are multiple covenants in the Baha'i faith, are they breaking all of them?
Ahanu
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It seems you do not see the self-contradiction.
You stated both Juan and Sen are some of "the most outstanding Baha'i history authorities," and you also stated that "Baha'i does hope to become a theocracy," yet Sen - the one in your list that has contributed the most to this topic - doesn't believe in a Baha'i theocracy. How can one of "the most outstanding Baha'i history authorities" fail to adopt what you take as the gospel truth of the Baha'i Faith and take a more separatist approach? I'll just leave that knot on your table to contemplate and untie . . .
We know good and well that the Baha'i Faith does not seek to establish a theocracy since it doesn't even look like one. If it did, people wouldn't be able to voluntarily leave the Faith, there would be clergy, and so on.
Here are a few quotes:
"If a farmer plants a tree, he cannot state at that moment what its exact height will be, the number of its branches or the exact time of its blossoming. He can, however, give a general impression of its size and pattern of growth and can state with confidence which fruit it will bear. The same is true of the evolution of the World Order of Bahá’u’lláh."
-Universal House of Justice
-Universal House of Justice
"It would be utterly misleading to attempt a comparison between this unique, this divinely conceived Order and any of the diverse systems which the minds of men . . . have contrived . . . Such an attempt would betray a lack of complete appreciation of the excellence of the handiwork of its great Author . . . The diverse and ever-shifting systems of human polity, whether past or present, whether originating in the East or West, offer no adequate criterion wherewith to estimate the potency of its hidden virtues or to appraise the solidity of its foundations."
-Shoghi Effendi
"The Bahá’í Commonwealth of the future, of which this vast Administrative Order is the sole framework, is, both in theory and practice, not only unique in the entire history of political institutions, but can find no parallel in the annals of any of the world’s recognized religious systems. No form of democratic government; no system of autocracy or of dictatorship, whether monarchical or republican; no intermediary scheme of a purely aristocratic order; nor even any of the recognized types of theocracy, whether it be the Hebrew Commonwealth, or the various Christian ecclesiastical organizations, or the Imamate or the Caliphate in Islam—none of these can be identified or be said to conform with the Administrative Order which the master-hand of its perfect Architect has fashioned."
-Shoghi Effendi
"As difference in degree of capacity exists among human souls, as difference in capability is found, therefore, individualities will differ one from another. But in reality this is a reason for unity and not for discord and enmity. If the flowers of the garden were all of one color, the effect would be monotonous to the eye; but if the colors are variegated, it is most pleasing and wonderful."
-Abdu'l-Baha
" . . . our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men."
-Baha'u'llah
". . .the one true God . . . hath bestowed the government of the earth upon the kings . . . That which He hath reserved for Himself are the cities of the hearts of men . . ."
-Baha'u'llah
-Shoghi Effendi
"The Bahá’í Commonwealth of the future, of which this vast Administrative Order is the sole framework, is, both in theory and practice, not only unique in the entire history of political institutions, but can find no parallel in the annals of any of the world’s recognized religious systems. No form of democratic government; no system of autocracy or of dictatorship, whether monarchical or republican; no intermediary scheme of a purely aristocratic order; nor even any of the recognized types of theocracy, whether it be the Hebrew Commonwealth, or the various Christian ecclesiastical organizations, or the Imamate or the Caliphate in Islam—none of these can be identified or be said to conform with the Administrative Order which the master-hand of its perfect Architect has fashioned."
-Shoghi Effendi
"As difference in degree of capacity exists among human souls, as difference in capability is found, therefore, individualities will differ one from another. But in reality this is a reason for unity and not for discord and enmity. If the flowers of the garden were all of one color, the effect would be monotonous to the eye; but if the colors are variegated, it is most pleasing and wonderful."
-Abdu'l-Baha
" . . . our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men."
-Baha'u'llah
". . .the one true God . . . hath bestowed the government of the earth upon the kings . . . That which He hath reserved for Himself are the cities of the hearts of men . . ."
-Baha'u'llah
Ahanu
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Being most familiar with Theravada Buddhism of SE Asia, who comes to my mind are people like the Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu of Thailand, with his "Dharma Socialism" in a rather reactionary regime where the monastic order is closely enmeshed with political institutions; or those laypeople who do not abide by the taboos surrounding the discussion of actual spiritual attainments (monks are forbidden to brag about their attainments before laypeople, but there is no such rule for laypeople, and yet it is not a done thing to openly speak about the possibility of personally replicating the Buddha's results); or those who have the audacity to re-introduce the Bhikkhuni (nuns) Order into Theravada (the Theravada Bhikkhuni lineage ended centuries ago, but in Mahayana there have always been nuns, who could be present at Theravada Bhikkhuni ordination to fulfill the requirements)...
badger
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Don't tell me what Sen thinks, better to actually quote exactly what he writes, eh?
Please tell me, does Baha'i have criminal laws and punishments written down by Bahauallah including the death penalty?
badger
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Don't tell me what Sen thinks, better to actually quote exactly what he writes, eh?
Please tell me, does Baha'i have criminal laws and punishments written down by Bahauallah including the death penalty?
badger
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Please to include my words 'some of' within your commas.
It make souch difference, don't you think?
Ahanu
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Refer back to the post above. I included a link to his blog post about it. There's no need to quote.
Yep. That's a potential option.
Hmmm.... we haven't FOUND/DECIDED ON anything in the other thread Badger. that's maybe just your own conclusion.
badger
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A potential opinion? I think I perceive a body-swerve there.....
I'm really glad that you have read some of both Sen's and Juan's writings.
badger
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Do you think that Bahai would not be a theocracy, is not written to be a theocracy?
OK.... two questions, please?
In the event that, say, 80% of a country's people are Bahais, would these people carry on their lives under the rule of a government that the non-Bahai citizens had voted for?
Can you teach me about the reasons for the Bahai criminal legislation and sentences for offenders...when would these come in to practice?
In one of these threads - I think the other one - I mentioned how I don't think there can be ideology without actors.
Translating: There can be no Baha'i theocracy without people actively working to implement it.
We can see the potential for a Baha'i theocracy outlined even in the central Baha'i texts. (Just as we can see some communism-like ideology in the Christian new testament). But we aren't going to work towards that, @badger - you and I are not the actors for such an ideology.
So the question that remains, for me at least, according to this understanding: Are there actors for a Baha'i theocracy within the Baha'i community?
Translating: There can be no Baha'i theocracy without people actively working to implement it.
We can see the potential for a Baha'i theocracy outlined even in the central Baha'i texts. (Just as we can see some communism-like ideology in the Christian new testament). But we aren't going to work towards that, @badger - you and I are not the actors for such an ideology.
So the question that remains, for me at least, according to this understanding: Are there actors for a Baha'i theocracy within the Baha'i community?
badger
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I missed that, Cino, but I'm considering that now.
True.
True.
Good question.
This is an easy one. Bahais do not push for full and absolute equality for all people...they could if they wanted to, but they don't.
The Bahai World center can redact Bahai principles... could decide to redact the Bahai criminal legislation with sentences (since it would never ever govern a country) but I don't think it will.
Bahai could open up seats upon it's World Assembly for women.... but it hasn't.
Bahai could change the Probate system and rules....... but it hasn't.
It's not what people might do, one day...it's about what people can do now, I think.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
No. Bahai principles enunciated by their manifestation are irrevocable. That will require another manifestation who comes only 850 years from now (approximately). Till that time we are stuck with what that uneducated 19th Century Iranian said. It is Allah's/God's word: LGBTQ are an abomination and women cannot be in ruling bodies, the list below notwithstanding.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_government#Current_heads_of_state_or_government)
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badger
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Bahai should just redact all those laws and sentences, and it could proclaim that it would never seek to govern any country, no matter how large the majority of Bahais there might be in that country. That might help.And it really should redact all and any laws which might restrict the rights of women, perhaps?
I notice that there are three times as many Christians in Iran as Bahais, and although Christianity is tolerated there the suppression of Christianity doesn't seem to be less harsh that for Bahai. Do Bahais and Christians support each other in this politically difficult country?
What does (Christian) persecution look like in Iran?
Converts from Islam to Christianity are most at risk of persecution, especially by the government and to a lesser extent by society and their own families.
The government sees the growth of the church in Iran as an attempt by Western countries to undermine Islam and the Islamic regime of Iran. House groups made up of converts from Muslim backgrounds are often raided, and both their leaders and members have been arrested, prosecuted and given long prison sentences for “crimes against national security.”
The historical communities of Armenian and Assyrian Christians are recognized and protected by the state, but they are treated as second-class citizens and are not allowed contact with Christians from Muslim backgrounds.
Meet Hamed
Hamed Ashouri, who was sentenced to ten months’ imprisonment for Christian activities. He refused to inform on other Christians, resulting in him being beaten by the authorities. “I thank God for considering me worthy of enduring this persecution because of Him.”
What has changed this year?
The severity of persecution facing Christians in Iran remains largely unchanged.
..........................................etc
badger
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I don't think so, Aup.
Bahauallah wrote that Bahais can have two wives, but this was redacted later.
The World Assembly for Bahais can meet, become as one, and make decisions.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
Redaction of anything that Bahaollah said, God's word, Allah's word, is rejection of the covenant. Then that person does not remain a Bahai anymore.
House of Justice can form laws but cannot change what Bahaollah said. That is heretic. Who was the person who tried to change Bahaollah's laws?
House of Justice can form laws but cannot change what Bahaollah said. That is heretic. Who was the person who tried to change Bahaollah's laws?
Yes, that's a good way to summarize my point.
badger
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I think that it was Abdul Baha who redacted the two wives law, or possibly Shogi.Redaction of anything that Bahaollah said, God's word, Allah's word, is rejection of the covenant. Then that person does not remain a Bahai anymore.
House of Justice can form laws but cannot change what Bahaollah said. That is heretic. Who was the person who tried to change Bahaollah's laws?
But definitely that had been a two wives law originally.
badger
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I try to imagine what it might be like to live in a country governed by a Baha'i Assembly.......
Anyway, I like to be retired with a pension...... Bahauallah wrote that people should continue working, so that would be gone. And I like to cut what hair I've got left as I wish.....it goes on.
And as for my friends who are gay, they wouldn't be able to marry or live in love.
Baha'i is ok so long as it could never control the lives of people , whatever they believe.
Ahanu
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A potential opinion? I think I perceive a body-swerve there.....
I'm really glad that you have read some of both Sen's and Juan's writings.
How? A potential option refers to the death penalty. The other option is life imprisonment.