Bahai ....... political ambitions?

[badger]

To be fair, in another thread a Baha'i living in Iran has explained the actual situation on the ground for Baha'i there, and you have refused even to read her post?
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20309/page-2

I didn't refuse to read the post you linked to...it was your post.

 

[badger]

Iran is an Islamic state. Islam regards Muhammad (pbuh) as the final prophet. It is a strong article of faith. Baha'i is regarded as apostate from Islam. Khamenei describes it as deviant and a cult. Apostates from Islam are not well treated in Islamic states.

Trumped up charges of plotting and spying by authoritarian governments have no credibility

I don't want to discuss charges that I can't scrutinize.
I want to look in to how the Iranian government alleges that Bahai has Political ambitions.

 

[RJM]

I didn't refuse to read the post you linked to...it was your post.

It was a link to the page

I want to look in to how the Iranian government alleges that Bahai has Political ambitions.

@mrym explained that all charges come around to spying for Israel. It's a pretext. But you won't read her post
Whatever ...

 

[badger]

It was a link to the page
@mrym explained that all charges come around to spying for Israel. It's a pretext. But you won't read her post
Whatever ...

Is that the member has loses a friend to execution in Iran every day?
As you say...... whatever.
This thread is about how Iran perceives Bahai in comparison to Bahai claims. I'm trying to be impartial about this, but if you find a word, phrase or sentence which is not true then please would you advise me so that I can review and correct as necessary?

 

[badger]

Moving forward>>>>>>
I have already noted that any religion having its own Court system, this is not indication of political ambition of itself, because mostly every club, following or group has its own committees and assemblies.

Moving forward from this, the fact that Bahai only allows Bahais to vote for its local, national and world courts (Houses of Justice/assemblies) this is as normal reasonable as any other body whether religious or secular. Some Bahais are not privileged to have voting rights for various reasons, and this condition is complex because some Bahais that may vote may not sit upon assemblies..... but in any event, its voting system together with its voting rules do not suggest to me that it has political ambition, so long as it never has such a massive following in a country that the country becomes a 'Bahai' country, but in 200 years Bahai has never come close to this so that is an a mute point.

So..... Bahai Courts and Bahai voting....... no obvious evidence of any political ambition.

Moving forward soon...........

 

[badger]

Moving forward>>>>>>
Bahai Courts and its voting system are not of themselves indication of political ambition.
Now to look at Bahai assemblies sitting as courts to advise of judge in disputes or differences between Bahais.

Where I live many religions do have their own courts which adjudicate in civil matters between their own members. Our laws here permit private groups to adjudicate in civil matters where all parties agree to take part in and abide by decisions of private courts. I am aware of a Bahai assembly that sat and advised/adjudicated in a private matter about 44 years ago.... no political motivation about that afaik.

So.... Bahai Courts, the voting system and its rules, Bahai Courts adjudicating civil matters with agreeing parties....... no problems unless any others have points to make about that.

Moving forward soon......

 

[Cino]

Question about "agreeing parties": this is clearly not the same as "affected parties"? Where to draw lines?

My family has a few interfaith couples. My parents were from different religious backgrounds.

Who gets to bless the wedding? What pressures might build up in such a situation? Which religious body gets to lay claims on the children? Which cemeteries, what funeral rites, what guidelines for inheritance come into play?

Such issues have plagued interfaith relationships for a long time. Individuals may agree to abide by the rulings of one particular group, but the effects ripple across the family fabric.

 

[Cino]

Also the question of "religious courts" is a highly political one in many European countries. Entire political parties can live off the fear of "parallel justice" and so on.

I can imagine that this could be a factor in Iran as well.

 

[badger]

Question about "agreeing parties": this is clearly not the same as "affected parties"? Where to draw lines?

My family has a few interfaith couples. My parents were from different religious backgrounds.

Who gets to bless the wedding? What pressures might build up in such a situation? Which religious body gets to lay claims on the children? Which cemeteries, what funeral rites, what guidelines for inheritance come into play?

Such issues have plagued interfaith relationships for a long time. Individuals may agree to abide by the rulings of one particular group, but the effects ripple across the family fabric.

I don't know about interfaith situations, Cino. I don't think that any religious courts deal with any parties outside the religion in respect of civil cases, but of course that's different from weddings isn't it?

 

[badger]

Also the question of "religious courts" is a highly political one in many European countries. Entire political parties can live off the fear of "parallel justice" and so on.

I can imagine that this could be a factor in Iran as well.

Maybe. All I know is that Jewish, Muslim, Baha'i and possibly other religions have their own courts to handle civil matters as long as all parties agree.

 

[mrym]

Hello again badger

To be honest, I was not going to ever take part in any of your posts again, but I came upon a quote by Bahaullah yesterday which I knew forever but had forgotten. I cannot remember the exact order of His words but He says "if religion causes enmity and hatred, it's better to have no religion at all" thus I thought "oh my! I am angry because I am not being heard but is that really how I should be?"

So... here again I am coming to answer two points in your comments here:

1- baha'i women in Iran can't have higher education in the university. Now, some of the older ones have that because they went to university before the Islamic government came on power. But as someone like my friend whom I talked about, the sales manager girl, she had her degree in the Baha'i university. Baha'is have their own university in Iran which has only very few majors because of lack of teachers and resources. Classes would be held in houses and even then they are most often being interrupted and closed by the government because as the leader has ordered, baha'is must be prevented from having higher educations by all means.

2- there are not Jew, Christian or Zaraostrian courts in Iran because by the Islamic rules, all lawyers and rule givers must be Shia Muslim in Iran. Now, some Christians Jews etc may have their private courts but it is not official.

3- this is my PERSONAL opinion about the question "why Iran's government has never been good with Baha'is". I think the reason is Iran has always been -even at time of Shah- ruled by Mullas behind the scenes. This is not a secret information though; it is written even in our school books. So, even Shah wad afraid of the power of Mullas (and that finally became the reason that ended his rulership). Now, clearly Mullas would never like baha'is. They have no problems with religions "before Islam" but when they say Islam is the final one and then they start to rule people through deceiving them by making them wait for a prophet that is about to appear and they say that they themselves are the ones who are the owners of people by God's order, and following them is like following God Himself, then ofcourse the Baha'i ideology which tells people not to wait anymore and not to let any Mulla abuse or deceive them does not appeal to Mullas at power here.

When Bab became famous and many Iranians started to know about Him, they got to know about His laws. One, for example, was that He said "from now on the use of opium is forbidden". Now, on those days, the control of opium resources was in the hands of the government (as still is!) And of course they'd benefit from people using it and thus going into a kind of lethargy that will keep them away from any productive actions. Most of the Bab's and Bahaullah's laws call people to wake up and see for themselves and not follow anyone blindly whereas "following a mulla" is one of the main laws in Shia Islam, that is each Shia MUST be following a mulla of his/her choice and that creates huge wealth for mullas. Of course Mullas are the enemy of a religion that forbids blind fellowship. That is my personal analyses and opinion though.

 

[mrym]

H

Question about "agreeing parties": this is clearly not the same as "affected parties"? Where to draw lines?

My family has a few interfaith couples. My parents were from different religious backgrounds.

Who gets to bless the wedding? What pressures might build up in such a situation? Which religious body gets to lay claims on the children? Which cemeteries, what funeral rites, what guidelines for inheritance come into play?

Such issues have plagued interfaith relationships for a long time. Individuals may agree to abide by the rulings of one particular group, but the effects ripple across the family fabric.

Hello Cino
I'D like to answer your question regarding interfaith marriages as they are in Iran.

In Iran, a shia man can marry the woman from any other religion (except Baha'i coz baha'i is not considered a religion here) and his marriage will be officially noted and considered as legal. The condition for shia women is different though. A shia woman in Iran can only under one condition marry a man from another religion and that's if the man becomes Shia first. Now, in both cases, the children must be Shia when they grow up.

Coming to the situation of baha'is next, it is complicated. Baha'i marriages are not officially recognized in Iran. Baha'is will have their own wedding and stuff and then there are few judges that in return for some money (and not a small sum) make the marriage official. Now, that is only if both parties are bahais. A muslim man and a muslim woman here can/must never marry baha'is. But if they can somehow make it to getting married, they should first have a marriage according to the rules and laws of the party that is not a baha'i and then have another one according to the Baha'i rules. As for the children, they should be familiar with their parents' religion and at the age of 15, they should decide for themselves if they want to be a Baha'i or a muslim or whatever.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Looks brilliant Tony...... We finished our bathroom four weeks ago..... and a similar colour scheme! Our ladies have been reading 'home' mags..... it's all about 'grey' at present.
View attachment 3022

Yes indeed OB, my wife loves those mags. We must get some of those bath matt's for in the bath, we are at the age where the slip is dangerous, my wife with her broken wrist now knows this only too well! It was a kitchen slip on a mat though, not the new bathroom!

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That is my personal analyses and opinion though.

Yes it was, but I would like others to note that Baha'u'llah has offered this is the case in Official Writings.

Some of the strongest words given by Baha'u'llah are directed towards the leaders of religions, those that controlled the minds of humanity.

Like this hidden word.

O YE THAT ARE FOOLISH, YET HAVE A NAME TO BE WISE! Wherefore do ye wear the guise of shepherds, when inwardly ye have become wolves, intent upon My flock? Ye are even as the star, which riseth ere the dawn, and which, though it seem radiant and luminous, leadeth the wayfarers of My city astray into the paths of perdition.

— The Hidden Words, Persian no. 24

Regards Tony

 

[badger]

Hello again badger

To be honest, I was not going to ever take part in any of your posts again,

After reading some of your posts I think you should apologise, mrym. That would at least give me some reason to believe you in future.

So... here again I am coming to answer two points in your comments here:

1- baha'i women in Iran can't have higher education in the university. Now, some of the older ones have that because they went to university before the Islamic government came on power. But as someone like my friend whom I talked about, the sales manager girl, she had her degree in the Baha'i university. Baha'is have their own university in Iran which has only very few majors because of lack of teachers and resources. Classes would be held in houses and even then they are most often being interrupted and closed by the government because as the leader has ordered, baha'is must be prevented from having higher educations by all means.

.......... and was employed in a senior position within a Muslim directed company.

2- there are not Jew, Christian or Zaraostrian courts in Iran because by the Islamic rules, all lawyers and rule givers must be Shia Muslim in Iran. Now, some Christians Jews etc may have their private courts but it is not official.

My mentions of such courts were 'in general' and I had in mind that these exist where I live.
It was supporting Bahai Courts to handle civil disputes where all parties agree to this. Ergo..... not political!

3- this is my PERSONAL opinion about the question "why Iran's government has never been good with Baha'is". I think the reason is Iran has always been -even at time of Shah- ruled by Mullas behind the scenes. This is not a secret information though; it is written even in our school books. So, even Shah wad afraid of the power of Mullas (and that finally became the reason that ended his rulership). Now, clearly Mullas would never like baha'is. They have no problems with religions "before Islam" but when they say Islam is the final one and then they start to rule people through deceiving them by making them wait for a prophet that is about to appear and they say that they themselves are the ones who are the owners of people by God's order, and following them is like following God Himself, then ofcourse the Baha'i ideology which tells people not to wait anymore and not to let any Mulla abuse or deceive them does not appeal to Mullas at power here.

This thread is about the Iranian Government's belief that Bahai has political ambitions.
I wonder how much you know about the history of the Babis and Bahais in Persia since the start....

When Bab became famous and many Iranians started to know about Him, they got to know about His laws. One, for example, was that He said "from now on the use of opium is forbidden". Now, on those days, the control of opium resources was in the hands of the government (as still is!) And of course they'd benefit from people using it and thus going into a kind of lethargy that will keep them away from any productive actions. Most of the Bab's and Bahaullah's laws call people to wake up and see for themselves and not follow anyone blindly whereas "following a mulla" is one of the main laws in Shia Islam, that is each Shia MUST be following a mulla of his/her choice and that creates huge wealth for mullas. Of course Mullas are the enemy of a religion that forbids blind fellowship. That is my personal analyses and opinion though.

This thread is considering the opinion of the government/s of Iran.

 

[badger]

Yes indeed OB, my wife loves those mags. We must get some of those bath matt's for in the bath, we are at the age where the slip is dangerous, my wife with her broken wrist now knows this only too well! It was a kitchen slip on a mat though, not the new bathroom!

Regards Tony

Those were my idea! Mine! All the rest of it was Mrs Badger.......
She wanted the leafy wallpaper above the mid rail....... it was a glue on wall paper rather than a glue on paper paper.......... oh dear, after we tried to put up the second 'fall' of paper I gave up and suggested that we just paint the wall.....but wifeys are more tenacious than weak hubbies..... the paper went up!

 

[badger]

Also the question of "religious courts" is a highly political one in many European countries. Entire political parties can live off the fear of "parallel justice" and so on.

I can imagine that this could be a factor in Iran as well.

OK....... You got there first.
You clicked upon angles which I had not focused upon..... you're just quicker than me.
I was thinking about Bahai Police Forces and Militaries in any Bahai World or country order, but your posts about Bahai Courts. or Houses of Justice, have hit the nail squarely on the head.... imo.

I was thinking about this last night, and Bahai criminal laws with Bahai sentences just crashed in to my thoughts.
Yes.... No other religion that I know (outside of a theocracy) hopes to subject followers to policing and criminal laws with its own punishments and sentences.
The Bahai religion's founder wrote down criminal legislation and punishments for offenders, including and up to the death sentence. He would never have done this if he had not expected Bahai to rule over communities, or countries, or even the World.

Any movement that hopes or tries to (one day) rule countries or the World......... surely is political. I looked this up briefly before posting and offers Wiki's article which refers to this....... the Bahai laws and sentences for arson and murder just show that Bahai must have political ambitions. No government would allow a religion to subject its members to punishments outside of that country's own legal system.

Cino 1 Badger nuffin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baháʼí_laws

Arson: The punishment for arson is either the death penalty or life imprisonment. If the death penalty is applied, the convicted person is killed by burning.[36] The details of the law such as the degree of the offence and the circumstances are to be taken into account to decide which of the two sentences is to be selected has been left to the Universal House of Justice.[30][37] The Universal House of Justice has stated that the law is intended for a future condition of society, at which time they will be supplemented and applied by the Universal House of Justice;[37] the Universal House of Justice has written "In relation to arson, this depends on what 'house' is burned. There is obviously a tremendous difference in the degree of offence between the person who burns down an empty warehouse and one who sets fire to a school full of children."[38]

Murder: murder is punishable by the death penalty or life imprisonment. The details of the law such as the degree of the offence and the circumstances that are to be taken into account to decide which of the two sentences are to be selected has been left to the Universal House of Justice;[37] the Universal House of Justice has stated that the law is intended for a future condition of society, at which time they will be supplemented and applied by the Universal House of Justice.[30][37] In the case of manslaughter, it is necessary to pay a specified indemnity to the family of the deceased.

 

[mrym]

After reading some of your posts I think you should apologise, mrym. That would at least give me some reason to believe you in future.

I wonder how much you know about the history of the Babis and Bahais in Persia since the start....

I spoke only the truth, but a bit harshly, so I don't find any rasons to apologize. frankly speaking, I do not mind at all if you do not believe me now or in the future or ever because it is enough FOR MYSELF to know that I am telling the truth.
now regarding this "I wonder how much you know about the history of the Babis and Bahais in Persia since the start", I know about the history of Babi and Baha'i religion more than you do probably coz I live in the craddle of the faith and I am an Iranian and I am a Baha'i.

 

[badger]

I spoke only the truth, ...

mrym ...... you wrote down that Iran kills your friends every day! Please to tell us that Iran does not do this each day, or each month or each year..... just tell us the truth and we can then converse openly and politely.

 

[badger]

Iran is an Islamic state. Islam regards Muhammad (pbuh) as the final prophet. It is a strong article of faith. Baha'i is regarded as apostate from Islam. Khamenei describes it as deviant and a cult. Apostates from Islam are not well treated in Islamic states.

Yes. But apostates live, work, have families there...... they aren't treated like (for example) some Muslim communities in Israel, or the Muslims in China.

Trumped up charges of plotting and spying by authoritarian governments have no credibility

I took interest in these recent incidents because of your post, and I wonder how much you know about the connections between Bahai and Israel?
It's always a good idea to read the other side's claims as well..... and I think that sometimes those countries whom we hate can and do tell some truth.
Anyway, here is an Iranian paper's report about all that:-
Iran detains Bahai spying group linked to Israel - Tehran Times