You cannot find that word "killing" in my reply at all. I talked about systematic arrests etc and I used the word prosecution not in its physical ordinary meaning. That is clear from a comment I posted after that comment of mine and in the second one I said that since like 15 years ago, there has not been hanging or killing or kidnapping of the baha'is because now the eyes of the world are set upon Iran's government for any breaking of tge human rights' rules. Find that second comment of mine if you wish and read it.
Bahai ....... political ambitions?
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You cannot find that word "killing" in my reply at all. I talked about systematic arrests etc and I used the word prosecution not in its physical ordinary meaning. That is clear from a comment I posted after that comment of mine and in the second one I said that since like 15 years ago, there has not been hanging or killing or kidnapping of the baha'is because now the eyes of the world are set upon Iran's government for any breaking of tge human rights' rules. Find that second comment of mine if you wish and read it.
P.S: I added that in Yemen, Hoosies supported by Iran, are actually killing bahais.
But why should knowing that Iran imprisonment and mental torture of the baha'is be of so little importance that make you discard it with just a small sigh and look for examples of killing only?
But why should knowing that Iran imprisonment and mental torture of the baha'is be of so little importance that make you discard it with just a small sigh and look for examples of killing only?
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
It is sad that profanity of propoga was allowed to be given the light of day.
I am sad you share this in away that says it may have some credibility OB.
I can not even say regards at the moment, that is how sad that is. Tony
badger
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I understand your feelings Tony........... but .......
In the history of the UK (for example) some of the most highly respected people here have been caught out as traitors, nobody would ever have thought.......
Every case has to be investigated on its own merits..... we should never auto-trash anybody's word because we hate them.
You wanna example from my own experience? Would it help? Possibly?
I was a very good thief catcher, good enough for many huge retailers in the UK to use me, my courses and my films to train their own investigators and detectives...... I'm an old idiot now, but once I was good at that stuff.
To keep on top of my subjects and courses I used to occasionally work in the field, and one day, because I never judged anybody by looks or poshness, I took interest in, observed and arrested a very posh lady in a retail car park. I didn't know it but she was the wife of a very senior and powerful political person. Everybody knew her but me! When people saw a tatty bloke (I always dressed down) stop her in the car-park beside her fabulous car, they knew I was a bad man doing a bad thing to somebody important. The cops were there before I had even brought her past the store entrance. I was taken to the ground without warning or preamble. Fortunately this woman had stolen too much to be able to discard it unnoticed while I got 'sorted' and the police soon discovered the truth. This woman was so important that the store manager was actually shaking in shock, and wondering how his huge retailer employer might react to any news about all this. The police went quietly away. The manager wanted it all to go away. The woman signed a note to protect me and it all went away. Quietly.
Please don't tell me that you know who is true and who is false, just because of who they are.
Or like Jews under Hitler. Not quite so bad -- so that justifies repression? That makes it alright? Think apartheid South Africa. I do not support persecution anywhere.
The Baha'i headquarters was established in Israel, before the Iranian revolution. The fact is used by Iran to accuse Baha'i as agents of Israel. It's all in the wiki article I quoted from on page two of this thread:
https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20309/page-2
As did the apartheid newspapers in South Africa publish propaganda -- as does Russia Today and the Chinese news agency, as do the Mynmar and North Korean news agencies ...
All religious and political persecution of peaceful people should be condemned
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badger
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Alright....... so you didn't consider the Tehran newspaper's report, which I offered as a balance.
OK...... I will try to believe you..... let me try again.....
Israel doesn't think that Iran is a serious threat...
Israel is a really really decent country both outside and inside Israel.
Israel would never ever consider recruiting people in or from Iran to help them.
Israel would somehow insert it's own... Israelis (only) in to Iran if it wanted to gather information.
Israel would never try to help, train, instruct any people from Iran ... to help them.
Bahais is Iran would never ever try to do anything bad to the Iranian government.
If Israel might ask an Iranian Bahai to do something then that Bahai would absolutely refuse.
Bahais are very loyal to the Iranian government.
The World Body of Bahai, whose seat is in Israel, wouldn't ever help Israel if Israel might pressure it in any way.
None of the above could ever happen......... I've got it.
Of course it did. Of course they are Israeli spies. The official government newspaper says so; that means it must be true And the rascals confessed, did they not?
"... Despite the fact that Bahai sect members have acknowledged to a number of crimes, the West, particularly the United States, claims that Iran has infringed their rights.
However, Iran is trying to put an end to the cult's illegal acts.
Recently, Iran has also detained a number of members of spy networks connected to foreign secret agencies ..."
badger
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Well, even those religions which did not have explicit ambitions to become a political force did eventually develop them. Buddhism would be an extreme example, with the historical Buddha outright forbidding his monks to meddle with politics, eventually leading to theocracies in several Buddhist countries, Tibet having been the most well-known one. But Christianity also managed that leap, from "give unto Caesar..." and "when in Rome..." all the way to the Papal States.
I see no reason why Baha'is would not eventually follow this course, given that the basic premises - criminal law, administrative structures - are explicitly present in the foundational writings. And there is a great deal of historical precedent, like the two examples I mentioned.
(edited: spelling)
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Suddenly out of the topic of if Baha'is have political ambitions or not, you reached to the point of bringing up a news from the government who is the number one enemy of the baha'is and use it as a support to serve your idea? Who on earth will take the words of a dictator liar government to be true specially when their enmity towards baha'is is as clear as day light? If Baha'is were spies, it'd be much easier to keep their faith a secret. Just ridiculous.
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I suppose that the Church was once theocratic, is that right? I think the Popes once had control of armies?
In any event, that has given the Iranian government's opinions about Baha'i some support .
In my country (Germany), Baha'is pursued a very long-running series of lawsuits against the German state to have their hierarchical administrative order legally recognized, as it was contrary to German law regarding the autonomy of associations, clubs, etc.
(This is the so-called "Bahai-Decision" of the German Federal Constitutional Court; there is no English language wikipedia article, here is the German one: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai-Beschluss )
(edited for clarity and aded wikipedia link)
(This is the so-called "Bahai-Decision" of the German Federal Constitutional Court; there is no English language wikipedia article, here is the German one: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai-Beschluss )
(edited for clarity and aded wikipedia link)
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The Vatican State is still a theocracy. I don't know whether they qualify as an army, but the Vatican employs mercenaries, the "Swiss Guards".
badger
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I didn't know that, Cino.
Well, I knew about the Swiss guards.
What is your first language @mrym? I'm sure English language speakers could make similar errors writing in Persian. I personally quite accept that your intended meaning was 'persecuted' rather than 'executed' as you wrote. It does not justify disregarding the rest of what you say, about the treatment of Baha'i in Iran, imo
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Well.... the fact that Germany finally let Baha'is have what they want there shows that there was nothing wrong with the hierarchy.
The thing here is I think the past religions had laws and orders and hierarchy according to the needs of the age they appeared in. As for the Baha'i, it appeared in an age where humanity has now grown up from being a child into a teenager and thus needs better, more modern rules that go with the spirit of time.
At the same time, we have it in our Writings that before Baha'i religion is accepted worldwide as the medicine for the sick body of humanity, it will be severely rejected by all the big nation and even small one; Christians, Muslims, Buddhists.... and that to me is understandable because humanity in its teenage years is just like a rebellious teen who doesn't exactly know what harms him and what benefits him.
Well.... the fact that Germany finally let Baha'is have what they want there shows that there was nothing wrong with the hierarchy.
The thing here is I think the past religions had laws and orders and hierarchy according to the needs of the age they appeared in. As for the Baha'i, it appeared in an age where humanity has now grown up from being a child into a teenager and thus needs better, more modern rules that go with the spirit of time.
At the same time, we have it in our Writings that before Baha'i religion is accepted worldwide as the medicine for the sick body of humanity, it will be severely rejected by all the big nation and even small one; Christians, Muslims, Buddhists.... and that to me is understandable because humanity in its teenage years is just like a rebellious teen who doesn't exactly know what harms him and what benefits him.
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Baha'i can believe Baha'u'llah the second coming of Christ and pledge fealty to his every word if they want to; others reject the idea. Self proclaimed messiahs are nothing new. But it does not justify persecution, imo
And it also shows the Baha'i community engaged in policy making in Germany. That to my mind counts as having a political agenda, they did not simply follow the laws of the land, but actively sought to change them.
Or maybe the Baha'is are the teenage religion who will outgrow their rebellious phase and eventually join the grown-ups at the table? Maybe stop calling everyone else sick? Give it time.
I translated the Wiki in English for myself to understand what it says. It said that the Germany government thought Baha'is were engaged in political actions because of the nature of the hierarchy within the faith. So, what Baha'is did there is not trying to change/bend German laws. They tried to show that they could be placed within the existing laws.
regarding the second point, I do not mean to name call the whole humanity etc. we need just take a look at the current condition of the world to see if the whole humanity is in a rebelious condition against what actually benefits everyone or not. Don't you think humanity at the moment is sick? if Baha'is, good Christians, good Muslims, good Buddhists or any other person in his right mind want to follow the sick world, is it ever going to get better? Baha'is DO NOT think or act as if all people must be Baha'is. We just say that if the basic teachings are followed by everyone, the world will be a better world, and these basic teachings are the ame as the spiritual/social rules of the past religions with tweeks that makes them fit for this era. Do you think the current situation we see in the world is the situation of grown-ups around a table dining together in a friendly way? that is not so at all.