Bahai ....... political ambitions?

[mrym]

By the way, regarding that bit of news in the Persian News agency, I thought it is good that I, as an eye witness, give everyone a hint of how news and other sources of information are all banned in Iran and only the governmental sources are open, so that you would know that you CAN'T at all, in your right mind, rely on anything that the government wants to feed you:

Here, Face Book, Tweeter, Youtube, Telegram, most of the big and famous news agency websites, and many more websites including any websites that has even one word about the Baha'i religion is banned; like at the moment, this very forum is banned in Iran, so in order to use it we have to have VPN and Proxy. If a Persian in Iran wants to do a research about the Baha'i religion, all the websites linked to the Baha'i library etc are banned. So you search "Baha'i" in google, and only the Persian websites that say Baha'is are spies etc come up. Further than that, almost all the websites that broadcast movies are banned. except for Instagram, all social media here is banned, and they have recently been talking about a new law that bans Instagram as well. So basically, if you want to use google in Iran, you need to have a VPN (like I always have). the matter becomes more complicated when you know that many of the available VPNS are made by the govrnment so that they can track the users (which happened sometimes in the past to me) so one needs to really undertake an investigagtion to find out what to use. Now, all these rules and bans and sensorships are just for the citizens. The govenrmental people have access to all these websites. like the main leader here himself has a tweeter account etc.

On the other hand, they never let their opposite voices be heard. As an example, they constantly make TV documentaries and radio documentaries and news letters about such dirty spies as Baha'is are and their fake leader etc. But, Baha'is are not allowed to have any voices or even to defend themselves once and if they try to erase those lies given to people, their act of self defence will be labled as "treaturous tries to spread their belief".

I guess these information are enough to give everyone a hint of the general situation here for all the people and specially for Baha'is.

 

[badger]

You cannot find that word "killing" in my reply at all.

True..... this is what you wrote:-
I see with my own eyes how my Baha'i friends are being executed without a sin everyday

I see that you really meant persecuted...is that correct?
OK.

I talked about systematic arrests etc and I used the word prosecution not in its physical ordinary meaning. That is clear from a comment I posted after that comment of mine and in the second one I said that since like 15 years ago, there has not been hanging or killing or kidnapping of the baha'is because now the eyes of the world are set upon Iran's government for any breaking of tge human rights' rules. Find that second comment of mine if you wish and read it.

So the Iranian government has not executed Bahais in 15 years? OK.
We see reports of Iran crane-hanging convicts from time to time and so Iran carries out these executions regardless. But no Bahais. OK.

Now that's all good, because it tells all the members more exactly about what is or is not happening there. A high % of Western people are very sad about the way that LGBT people are treated in Iran and other Muslim countries and they have been executed all through these times.

Human Rights rules where I live (covered by our Equalities Act 2010) provide for freedom, and protection from discrimination, harassment and victimisation of everybody and anybody, regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, sexuality, race, colour, religion, marital status, nationality, disabilities, age and more. Do you think that Bahai should support and protect all those without discrimination?

 

[Cino]

I translated the Wiki in English for myself to understand what it says. It said that the Germany government thought Baha'is were engaged in political actions because of the nature of the hierarchy within the faith. So, what Baha'is did there is not trying to change/bend German laws. They tried to show that they could be placed within the existing laws.

Well... no. Existing practice was that an association should be autonomous, should not take orders from some superior association. "Association" in this context broadly means incorporated groups like sports clubs, cultural associations, NGOs, etc. These types of associations are a big topic in Germany, subject of a lot of jokes and so on, but they reason there is so much reglementation is rooted in history, in bad experiences we had with groups that would act agains the common good and so on. So nowadays, to have, for example, a bank account for your cultural association, to collect member's dues and so on, you need to register your association (in German, you need an "eingetragener Verein"), and that comes with a set of requirements, one of them being that your association can't be part of a larger structure (too much tax evasion and other malpractice, can result from such a set-up). This is where the Baha'i ideas of an administrative order clashed with German legal practice, leading to the aforementioned litigation which went to the Federal Constitutional Court, the highest court in Germany.

Now, in Germany, there is also a long and terrible history of persecution of religious minority groups, so in the end a solution was found, exploiting the special status enjoyed by the state churches (which is another can of worms... but that would lead too far from the topic).

The fact remains, unacknowledged by you so far, that the Baha'i communty in Germany was not content to abide by the law of the land, but engaged in policymaking to change the status quo. Do you see how that completely contradicts the constant chorus of Baha'i apoligists stating how Baha'i is not a political force? Far from it, in my opinion.

Now do I think the Bahai administrative order is legal in Germany? The courts eventually decided yes, so I defer to that of course, but my personal opinion is no, I think even the Christian churches should be stripped of their special legal status, and that Germany should have a proper separation of Church and State like the modern country it wants to be. (Those laws favoring the Churches were made during the darkes time of Geman history, by the way, by lawmakers who were definitely not interested in liberal democracy, but they still stand).

regarding the second point, I do not mean to name call the whole humanity etc.

Well, then stop doing it. That would be the grown-up thing to do.

we need just take a look at the current condition of the world to see if the whole humanity is in a rebelious condition against what actually benefits everyone or not. Don't you think humanity at the moment is sick?

No.

Don't you think calling everyone sick is rather immature? "You're all sick and smell of loo, until you do what I say". No, not very mature to my ears.

if Baha'is, good Christians, good Muslims, good Buddhists or any other person in his right mind want to follow the sick world, is it ever going to get better? Baha'is DO NOT think or act as if all people must be Baha'is.

But your Most Holy Book contains divinely-dictated laws, currently not implemented anywhere, which strongly suggest they should, if they do not want to be second-class citicens in a Baha'i state.

That is so disappointing to find in a religion which claims to be "modern". Humanity has mostly gotten over this, it did not work, we tried for thousands of years, and finally, a few centuries ago, decided to try something new, to aim for the ideal of an egalitarian society, where no-one is put at a disadvantage for their beliefs, their reproductive organs, or their sexual preferences, to put a finger of some of the throw-backs proposed in Baha'i Law.

We just say that if the basic teachings are followed by everyone, the world will be a better world, and these basic teachings are the ame as the spiritual/social rules of the past religions with tweeks that makes them fit for this era. Do you think the current situation we see in the world is the situation of grown-ups around a table dining together in a friendly way? that is not so at all.

But the basic teachings you propose are severely at odds in several places with what humanity has, for the most part now, put behind. Do you think a religion barely over a hundred years old will have all the answers for issues humanity has failed to solve for millennia? Can you see how that attitude comes across as a bit immature, and how ridiculous it sounds when members of said religion claim that everyone else is being immature instead for rejecting tried-and-failed recipes?

 

[badger]

By the way, regarding that bit of news in the Persian News agency, I thought it is good that I, as an eye witness, give everyone a hint of how news and other sources of information are all banned in Iran and only the governmental sources are open, so that you would know that you CAN'T at all, in your right mind, rely on anything that the government wants to feed you:

Here, Face Book, Tweeter, Youtube, Telegram, most of the big and famous news agency websites, and many more websites including any websites that has even one word about the Baha'i religion is banned; like at the moment, this very forum is banned in Iran, so in order to use it we have to have VPN and Proxy. If a Persian in Iran wants to do a research about the Baha'i religion, all the websites linked to the Baha'i library etc are banned. So you search "Baha'i" in google, and only the Persian websites that say Baha'is are spies etc come up. Further than that, almost all the websites that broadcast movies are banned. except for Instagram, all social media here is banned, and they have recently been talking about a new law that bans Instagram as well. So basically, if you want to use google in Iran, you need to have a VPN (like I always have). the matter becomes more complicated when you know that many of the available VPNS are made by the govrnment so that they can track the users (which happened sometimes in the past to me) so one needs to really undertake an investigagtion to find out what to use. Now, all these rules and bans and sensorships are just for the citizens. The govenrmental people have access to all these websites. like the main leader here himself has a tweeter account etc.
On the other hand, they never let their opposite voices be heard. As an example, they constantly make TV documentaries and radio documentaries and news letters about such dirty spies as Baha'is are and their fake leader etc. But, Baha'is are not allowed to have any voices or even to defend themselves once and if they try to erase those lies given to people, their act of self defence will be labled as "treaturous tries to spread their belief".

I guess these information are enough to give everyone a hint of the general situation here for all the people and specially for Baha'is.

OK. I think that Iran believes that Bahai is a political organisation.
In the UK we ban or suppress one or two political organisations from advertising themselves or openly communicating via media.
It's sad that this happens.

You mention that the Iranian government can access and review all and any websites, yes, I expect that it can. Who knows, if Iranian observers see such a balanced set of opinions as are allowed on Interfaith then they might say.... 'OK, Interfaith isn't biased, it can be released'. Who knows?

 

[RJM]

By the way, regarding that bit of news in the Persian News agency, I thought it is good that I, as an eye witness, give everyone a hint of how news and other sources of information are all banned in Iran and only the governmental sources are open, so that you would know that you CAN'T at all, in your right mind, rely on anything that the government wants to feed you:

Here, Face Book, Tweeter, Youtube, Telegram, most of the big and famous news agency websites, and many more websites including any websites that has even one word about the Baha'i religion is banned; like at the moment, this very forum is banned in Iran, so in order to use it we have to have VPN and Proxy. If a Persian in Iran wants to do a research about the Baha'i religion, all the websites linked to the Baha'i library etc are banned. So you search "Baha'i" in google, and only the Persian websites that say Baha'is are spies etc come up. Further than that, almost all the websites that broadcast movies are banned. except for Instagram, all social media here is banned, and they have recently been talking about a new law that bans Instagram as well. So basically, if you want to use google in Iran, you need to have a VPN (like I always have). the matter becomes more complicated when you know that many of the available VPNS are made by the govrnment so that they can track the users (which happened sometimes in the past to me) so one needs to really undertake an investigagtion to find out what to use. Now, all these rules and bans and sensorships are just for the citizens. The govenrmental people have access to all these websites. like the main leader here himself has a tweeter account etc.
On the other hand, they never let their opposite voices be heard. As an example, they constantly make TV documentaries and radio documentaries and news letters about such dirty spies as Baha'is are and their fake leader etc. But, Baha'is are not allowed to have any voices or even to defend themselves once and if they try to erase those lies given to people, their act of self defence will be labled as "treaturous tries to spread their belief".

I guess these information are enough to give everyone a hint of the general situation here for all the people and specially for Baha'is.

However @mrym do be careful that what you say on public forums like these could not get you into trouble at home. You never know ...

 

[mrym]

OK. I think that Iran believes that Bahai is a political organisation.
In the UK we ban or suppress one or two political organisations from advertising themselves or openly communicating via media.
It's sad that this happens.

You mention that the Iranian government can access and review all and any websites, yes, I expect that it can. Who knows, if Iranian observers see such a balanced set of opinions as are allowed on Interfaith then they might say.... 'OK, Interfaith isn't biased, it can be released'. Who knows?

Huh....they'll never let websites like Interfaith be open coz here Baha'i people can "talk". for that reason alone, it will never be allowed. in fact the banning of the websites is done automatically based on keywords, so that is that.

 

[mrym]

However @mrym do be careful that what you say on public forums like these could not get you into trouble at home. You never know ...

Right. I kina felt bad after giving that bit of info life's tough having to all the time be careful about what you say and what you do not say I think I'd walk the path more carefully from now on

 

[mrym]

But the basic teachings you propose are severely at odds in several places with what humanity has, for the most part now, put behind. Do you think a religion barely over a hundred years old will have all the answers for issues humanity has failed to solve for millennia? Can you see how that attitude comes across as a bit immature, and how ridiculous it sounds when members of said religion claim that everyone else is being immature instead for rejecting tried-and-failed recipes?

The recipe of the Baha'i faith is not yet widely tried (or failed). but even apart from that, just looking at what humans think they can do relying only on their own minds stripped of any spiritual guidances, I do not think it can save the world from where it is now. There has been wars on earth made by people who did not believe in God and wars by people who did believe in God. So, both ways are tried and tested. why not give the new sets of rules a try? I mean, one can at least take a look at the basics of it and see for ones self if one finds the rules in accord with the whole human society benefits.
now, I do not REALLY wish to sound like someone ho tries to sell her ideas and believs. I just mean to say "let's all unite to make a better world. no matter what our religion is. the world at present is not good. it is SICK."

 

[Cino]

I guess these information are enough to give everyone a hint of the general situation here for all the people and specially for Baha'is.

Yes, I agree, the situation in Iran is very bad.

A real pity that they got rid of a corrupt puppet monarchy, only to implement a theocracy.

I hope the development will go in the direction of more liberty and separation of religion and state.

 

[Cino]

The recipe of the Baha'i faith is not yet widely tried (or failed). but even apart from that, just looking at what humans think they can do relying only on their own minds stripped of any spiritual guidances, I do not think it can save the world from where it is now. There has been wars on earth made by people who did not believe in God and wars by people who did believe in God. So, both ways are tried and tested. why not give the new sets of rules a try? I mean, one can at least take a look at the basics of it and see for ones self if one finds the rules in accord with the whole human society benefits.
now, I do not REALLY wish to sound like someone ho tries to sell her ideas and believs. I just mean to say "let's all unite to make a better world. no matter what our religion is. the world at present is not good. it is SICK."

But the "new" rules are not new.

We have had rules putting women at a disadvantage for millennia. This is old hat! And on top of it, it doesn't work very well.

We have had rules putting non-heterosexual people at a disadvantage for millennia. This is old hat! And it doesn't work.

We have had rules putting non-believers in whichever arbitrary dogma fashionable at the time, at a disadvantage. Guess what, doesn't work, we don't want to do that any more.

In short, we have had religious figures try to meddle in politics for millennia. Baha'i is just another in an endless queue of contenders waving their not-so-original revelations as the foundation for a law-and-order state where everyone is heterosexual and a believer and so on. Guess what, that has been tried so many times, it never worked.

But when we stopped basing our laws on some unquestionable revelation, guess what, we made progress! We have science, medicine, modern education, new ways to try to organize our societies which lead to more participation by all... this started well before Baha'u'llah or the Bab (have you read any actual writings of the Bab - not snippet quotes of a few words, but an actual text, say, the Bayan? Do you think that is the latest and greates in modern statesmanship? Even Baha'u'llah saw himself called to get rid of those laws!), and it was set in motion by people who stopped listening to the religious power elites.

I've said my thing, as in previous threads in the past years.

I have the gift of prophecy, by the way. I can see into the future, where you will not address what I wrote, but just go into straight-up denial. You or another Baha'i will quote eye-glazing walls of quotes from the Baha'i writings until everyone will lose interest in this topic.

Tough being a prophet, people never listen.

 

[RJM]

Right. I kina felt bad after giving that bit of info life's tough having to all the time be careful about what you say and what you do not say I think I'd walk the path more carefully from now on

Delete anything you're not happy about, imo.
(edited)

 

[mrym]

I have the gift of prophecy, by the way. I can see into the future, where you will not address what I wrote, but just go into straight-up denial. You or another Baha'i will quote eye-glazing walls of quotes from the Baha'i writings until everyone will lose interest in this topic.

Tough being a prophet, people never listen.

Haha...your final words made me smile. I guess that is enough good to take from one post; "bringing smile to someone's face". though, I do not dismiss the rest of your points, and I daresay (as you have maybe foreseen, O Thou Mighty Prophet ) I disagree with many of the things you said, but somehow my brain is tired. I do not think this is the correct way of interaction or making a better world. my favorite kind of interaction -when it comes to investigations- is the socratic method which is not that good for a forum/thread.

 

[badger]

....... this started well before Baha'u'llah or the Bab (have you read any actual writings of the Bab - not snippet quotes of a few words, but an actual text, say, the Bayan?
.

I haven't got the whole work, but some the parts that I've read were shockers.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I understand your feelings Tony........... but .......
In the history of the UK (for example) some of the most highly respected people here have been caught out as traitors, nobody would ever have thought.......
Every case has to be investigated on its own merits..... we should never auto-trash anybody's word because we hate them.

The case here is that Baha'u'llah was banished to the prison city of Akka, a place so foul that it was expected that anyone sent there would perish.

I notice @RJM already posted this fact.

Roll on a hundred years or so and now this injustice is used to further accuse Baha'i of involvement in politics and spying.

What were the original charges against Baha'u'llah OB?

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

By the way, regarding that bit of news in the Persian News agency, I thought it is good that I, as an eye witness, give everyone a hint of how news and other sources of information are all banned in Iran and only the governmental sources are open, so that you would know that you CAN'T at all, in your right mind, rely on anything that the government wants to feed you:

Here, Face Book, Tweeter, Youtube, Telegram, most of the big and famous news agency websites, and many more websites including any websites that has even one word about the Baha'i religion is banned; like at the moment, this very forum is banned in Iran, so in order to use it we have to have VPN and Proxy. If a Persian in Iran wants to do a research about the Baha'i religion, all the websites linked to the Baha'i library etc are banned. So you search "Baha'i" in google, and only the Persian websites that say Baha'is are spies etc come up. Further than that, almost all the websites that broadcast movies are banned. except for Instagram, all social media here is banned, and they have recently been talking about a new law that bans Instagram as well. So basically, if you want to use google in Iran, you need to have a VPN (like I always have). the matter becomes more complicated when you know that many of the available VPNS are made by the govrnment so that they can track the users (which happened sometimes in the past to me) so one needs to really undertake an investigagtion to find out what to use. Now, all these rules and bans and sensorships are just for the citizens. The govenrmental people have access to all these websites. like the main leader here himself has a tweeter account etc.

On the other hand, they never let their opposite voices be heard. As an example, they constantly make TV documentaries and radio documentaries and news letters about such dirty spies as Baha'is are and their fake leader etc. But, Baha'is are not allowed to have any voices or even to defend themselves once and if they try to erase those lies given to people, their act of self defence will be labled as "treaturous tries to spread their belief".

I guess these information are enough to give everyone a hint of the general situation here for all the people and specially for Baha'is.

I think I now know who I speak with. Great to see you here, I pray for you and the Nation of Iran every morning.

Regards Tony

 

[badger]

The case here is that Baha'u'llah was banished to the prison city of Akka, a place so foul that it was expected that anyone sent there would perish.

I notice @RJM already posted this fact.

Roll on a hundred years or so and now this injustice is used to further accuse Baha'i of involvement in politics and spying.

What were the original charges against Baha'u'llah OB?

Regards Tony

Hello Tony...... I don't think Bahauallah was charged, nor convicted of offences, unless you know better. He went freely to Istanbul, thence to (forget,) and thence to Akka, but he lived moderately well there, had staff etc, was not incarcerated afaik . I've heard the Baha'i tales about Akka, a Baha'i lady told me (50 yrs ago) that 'Akka was so foul that if a bird flew over it would die'.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Hello Tony...... I don't think Bahauallah was charged, nor convicted of offences, unless you know better. He went freely to Istanbul, thence to (forget,) and thence to Akka, but he lived moderately well there, had staff etc, was not incarcerated afaik . I've heard the Baha'i tales about Akka, a Baha'i lady told me (50 yrs ago) that 'Akka was so foul that if a bird flew over it would die'.

It was not a free choice that Baha'u'llah had to make OB nor was he and his companions 'Free'. I suggest you read of the harsh conditions that we imposed on Baha’u’llah and his followers.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Hello Tony...... I don't think Bahauallah was charged, nor convicted of offences, unless you know better. He went freely to Istanbul, thence to (forget,) and thence to Akka, but he lived moderately well there, had staff etc, was not incarcerated afaik . I've heard the Baha'i tales about Akka, a Baha'i lady told me (50 yrs ago) that 'Akka was so foul that if a bird flew over it would die'.

There is a Hadith about Akka and the fleas. Abdul'baha gives an account how he slept with the fleas

".. His room remained unrepaired and in very bad condition. Not only were its walls damp but the roof leaked and the floor was covered with dust. He sat and slept on a mat in that room. His bed cover was a sheepskin. The room was infested with fleas and when He slept under the sheepskin, fleas gathered and began biting. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá worked out a tactic of defeating the fleas by turning over His sheepskin at intervals. He would sleep for a while before the fleas found their way again to the inner side. He would then turn the sheepskin over again. Every night He had to resort to this tactic eight to ten times..."

Was that was a comfortable existance?

Remember Abdul'baha did everything he could to keep Baha'u'llah, His Family and all the exiles as comfortable as possible. Abdul'baha was very good at providing for others.

This is the Hadith.

"And He - may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him - hath said: "I announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God - exalted be He! It is called Akka. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face of the enemy, God will gather him with Khidr - peace be upon Him - and God will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection."

Regards Tony

 

[mrym]

Hello Tony...... I don't think Bahauallah was charged, nor convicted of offences, unless you know better. He went freely to Istanbul, thence to (forget,) and thence to Akka, but he lived moderately well there, had staff etc, was not incarcerated afaik . I've heard the Baha'i tales about Akka, a Baha'i lady told me (50 yrs ago) that 'Akka was so foul that if a bird flew over it would die'.

He did not go there on His own will. the government banished Him, and before the banishment executed many Babi's (at that time, we still just had the Babi religion.) Many kids were in the banished caravan of Bahaullah, and you should read the account of hardship the kids and women had to tolerate when, in winter time, they had to cross snowy mountains to reach Istanbul, with no proper clothes or shoes or food. these are the basic historical acts about the Babi and Baha'i movement really. If you do not know the basics, you cannot move forward correctly.

 

[mrym]

I think I now know who I speak with. Great to see you here, I pray for you and the Nation of Iran every morning.

Regards Tony

Yep your guess is right my friend have a good day. Allaho Abha