Bahai ....... political ambitions?

[RJM]

We have a person posting here from inside Iran, telling us the situation on the ground for Baha'i in that country, and her complaints are being treated with suspicion by some as lightweight cry-baby whingeing -- by people safe in western countries, imo

 

[mrym]

We have a person posting here from inside Iran, telling us the situation on the ground for Baha'i in that country, and her complaints are being treated with suspicion by some as lightweight cry-baby whingeing -- by people safe in western countries, imo

very true RJM. I was reading parts of Masnavi tonight; a mystical book of poetry composed by Persian poet "Rumi" and there he says we cannot really feel the depth of misery and darkness which is being spoken of, unless we personally have some experience of it. Now, I see that Baha'is' life as a minority group is really not THAT important even to people inside Iran themselves. many many people have not even heard the name yet, and if you tell them about the plague of Baha'is the most they'd say is "Ah! how bad". but if we talk about something which has afflicted them, they'll be very vigourously doing whatever within their power to change it. I don't blame them though, because as Rumi says, this is natural human tendency.But, I rally don't understand the people who blame Baha'is for not standing for the rights of other people in Iran or in the world. Baha'is are small group here and they do whatever they can to generally elevate the situation of th society they live in, but because of all the suppression they have on them, they really cannot start speaking for other groups as well, because the least that can happen then is they will be blamed of trying to disturb the society by spreading lies, etc.

 

[RJM]

very true RJM. I was reading parts of Masnavi tonight; a mystical book of poetry composed by Persian poet "Rumi" and there he says we cannot really feel the depth of misery and darkness which is being spoken of, unless we personally have some experience of it. Now, I see that Baha'is' life as a minority group is really not THAT important even to people inside Iran themselves. many many people have not even heard the name yet, and if you tell them about the plague of Baha'is the most they'd say is "Ah! how bad". but if we talk about something which has afflicted them, they'll be very vigourously doing whatever within their power to change it. I don't blame them though, because as Rumi says, this is natural human tendency.But, I rally don't understand the people who blame Baha'is for not standing for the rights of other people in Iran or in the world. Baha'is are small group here and they do whatever they can to generally elevate the situation of th society they live in, but because of all the suppression they have on them, they really cannot start speaking for other groups as well, because the least that can happen then is they will be blamed of trying to disturb the society by spreading lies, etc.

At any time, there are a lot more people reading than those actively involved in the thread. People absorb and reflect

 

[Cino]

But, I rally don't understand the people who blame Baha'is for not standing for the rights of other people in Iran or in the world. Baha'is are small group here and they do whatever they can to generally elevate the situation of th society they live in

I don't blame you.

I am saying that it looks bad how your religion is stuck with sacred laws which are incompatible with the human rights which mankind has finally started to recognize: equality before the law, regardless of sex, choice of partner, or personal beliefs.

Of course Iranian Baha'is, and many other disadvantaged and persecuted groups in Iran, currently have no capacity to address this.

But Western Baha'is do not have to fear for their lives. Yet they don't seem to want to address this issue with their religious laws.

That's ok! You can believe what you want. You can even call such beliefs "modern". It just doesn't make any sense, a modern belief system that is incompatible with basic human rights.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Ah ah...... I don't want to read another's account, I want to read what Bahauallah wrote about it.
Iv'e read too much of what looked to me like embellishment.
Yes, a mountain journey could be cold, but Bahauallah was looked after financially and securely..... I know what cold can do, I have Reynard condition

I think you will find OB that Baha'u'llah accepted no financial assistance for himself or his family.

Remember the wealth of the Baha'i was all confiscated, as were their homes and properties. Baha'u'llah did have much wealth.

Abdul'baha lived in such a manner all his life, if he ever accepted a donation, it was given to help others.

Baha'u'llah and his family lived on very little. There is much written on this OB.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No no.... Tony, if the local gov knocked those houses down then they had a reason..... mrym has already explained that the Iranian hov has been extra careful for 15 yes about all this .

Don't forget that the Babis were a revolutionary organisation, don't let's get to me having to show that.

The people can be volatile, when Charles ll was crowned the body of Cromwell was dug up and hanged. Revolutionaries get harsh responses.

Luckily OB there is footage of this occasion.

You need to inform yourself of this, I will not offer it up, as it just leads to more argument OB.

Here is a link to some archive material about the destruction of the house of the Bab.

https://iranbahaipersecution.bic.org/archive/destruction-house-bab-shiraz

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I wonder what Diane Ala’i would like 'the International Community' to do?
Any ideas?

For more people to appeal for and seek justice for all those that face oppression OB. For the International community to take greater action against oppression.

The issue is that will most likely have to happen with sanctions on a very large scale, which would mean the wealthy Nations would have to share a lot of the pain.

I am happy to suffer great need if that what it takes OB, I wonder how many would be willing?

Regards Tony

 

[Longfellow]

This post is about the topic of this thread, what political ambitions Baha’is might have. In my earlier post, I was not suggesting that Baha’is in Iran should be speaking up about oppression against other people in Iran. My point was that Baha’is in other parts of the world have been publicly denouncing the government of Iran, stirring up animosity against it in all of society, trying to shame and intimidate it into changing its policies towards Baha’is, in open and blatant violation of their “no politics” rule. At the same time, they have used that rule as a reason to not ever say a word against oppression by any specific government against any group of people. That would be reason enough for me, if I didn’t have other reasons already, not to believe the claims of Baha’is that if they ever came to power, their principles would ensure that all people would be treated equally.

There are some vicious attacks against the Iranian government for its oppression of Baha’is, on the website of a Baha’i agency representing the Baha’is at the UN, without any mention of the oppression of any other specific government against any group or category of people.

 

[badger]

Well, I can see the Iranian Baha'is not wanting to stick out their heads. Iran is definitely not what we'd call a modern liberal democracy.

Baha'is in more friendly places, I agree, it is a bit more telling how they position themselves regarding equal rights, within their own ranks and in general, for women, lgbtq people, and non-believers.

I'm not sure the top level of the Baha'i hierarchy would find itself justified within Baha'i beliefs to change the Most Holy Book. That might be asking too much.

But as with other religions, and especially ones claiming to be tailor made for present times, and which find themselves unable to express themselves in addressing our current situation, but instead resort to suppressing what they cannot face - I find them lacking, weighed and found too light, as one ancient text puts it. To my ear, they speak to the past, and an idealized past that would not have been recognizable to its inhabitants, at that.

Denial and suppression, which the Baha'is in Iran are facing : terrible! And yet, their spiritual hierarchy is busy denying and suppressing basic human rights: equality before the law, regardless of the shape of one's body parts, or the stirrings of one's heart.

I really wouldn't want to live in Iran, don't know anybody who would, it is as much an enemy of 'the West' as, say, Afghanistan; but I've known about Bahai for over 50 years now and I just cannot take much that it claims for granted, neither its history nor its politics. In my opinion I think that a Bahai governed country would be just as shocking as Iran.

I've come to believe that if a Bahai received a parking ticket he'd make the call 'They did it because I'm a Bahai!' and the average westerner would think about Bahai claims, would consider Iran, and think 'Probably!'

I've known a Bahai in the UK that committed a serious crime (he pled guilty, circa 1979) and went to prison for 2-3 years, at least that was the court's sentence, now just imagine that happening in Iran and I seriously wonder how that would be reported (If at all).

We've read on this forum from a Bahai that Iran has been more aware because of international 'watch' over treatment of Bahais for 15 years now and yet the incident at Roshan Kuh where the Mazandaran Province of natural resources and forestry has destroyed three houses ...this has been claimed to be an action against Bahai rather than a legal action due to illegally building on a green belt of forestry land. I cannot believe them.

We've read about the ankle gating of three Bahai women after criminal convictions and this has been claimed as yet another action against Bahai. Well, not if Iran is keeping its human rights violation profile as low as possible. IMO The one country in the World that could put some pressure upon Bahai to 'do stuff' for it is ...Israel, and just now Israel isn't getting a wonderful press about upholding all human rights. Israel is such a diplomatically delicate situation for Bahai that afaik no Bahai is allowed (by Bahai) to enter the country of Israel without special clearance from the Bahai World office. So claims that Bahais have committed offences in Iran for Israel....it's not impossible.

When I first knew about Bahai very very few English speaking people knew anything about it, yet they had been attracted to a religion where every other religion and way of life was accepted, where love and understanding came before all else. Yeah, right! As the translations of Bahaullah's books were shown to the World, then the serious questions began. I think Juan Cole translated books which upset Bahai...that's what I think.

 

[badger]

For more people to appeal for and seek justice for all those that face oppression OB. For the International community to take greater action against oppression.

The issue is that will most likely have to happen with sanctions on a very large scale, which would mean the wealthy Nations would have to share a lot of the pain.

I am happy to suffer great need if that what it takes OB, I wonder how many would be willing?

Regards Tony

We're suffering now, in Europe, and will suffer more, because a very nasty international criminal has invaded a democratic country and is killing, looting, pillaging and lying about it to his own people. Our sanctions actually hurt us, yet we (most of us) support them. I just hope that we can keep our determination strong through this winter...it's going to be a cold one for us.

Now that's something that you could get your teeth in to.

Have at it. But Iran dealing with 'green-belt' violators and gating offenders isn't the crusade for the West just now.
We've got real tyrants coming at us.

 

[badger]

This post is about the topic of this thread, what political ambitions Baha’is might have. In my earlier post, I was not suggesting that Baha’is in Iran should be speaking up about oppression against other people in Iran. My point was that Baha’is in other parts of the world have been publicly denouncing the government of Iran, stirring up animosity against it in all of society, trying to shame and intimidate it into changing its policies towards Baha’is, in open and blatant violation of their “no politics” rule. At the same time, they have used that rule as a reason to not ever say a word against oppression by any specific government against any group of people. That would be reason enough for me, if I didn’t have other reasons already, not to believe the claims of Baha’is that if they ever came to power, their principles would ensure that all people would be treated equally.

There are some vicious attacks against the Iranian government for its oppression of Baha’is, on the website of a Baha’i agency representing the Baha’is at the UN, without any mention of the oppression of any other specific government against any group or category of people.

That's Bahai, Longfellow. imo.

A dreadful tyrant is ripping up a country and murdering civilians not too far away, and Bahai is pointing somewhere else, about a green-belt violation and some ankle gated convicts. That's Bahai, imo.

And, as you say, Bahai outside Iran can clamour and howl about those nasty Shia Muslims, but if it checked early Bahai history it would realise how cautious Shia Islam is about Bahai. Not political? Meh!


⦁ It is ordained in the Babi Shariah that any one who hurts the feelings of the Bab, or his successors after him, was to be killed; and for bringing about his death every possible means could be adopted.
(Ref: Al-Bayan, Bab 15, Wahid 6)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A dreadful tyrant is ripping up a country and murdering civilians not too far away, and Bahai is pointing somewhere else, about a green-belt violation and some ankle gated convicts. That's Bahai, imo.

Oh Dear OB, you jumped right over the link given you and made no mention of all the records on that link.

Also, consider a comparison, given your responses, it would be like posting the current Russian news as the more reliable proof and that Ukraine are telling the fibs about the destruction of non military targets.

Regards Tony

 

[badger]

Oh Dear OB, you jumped right over the link given you and made no mention of all the records on that link.

Also, consider a comparison, given your responses, it would be like posting the current Russian news as the more reliable proof and that Ukraine are telling the fibs about the destruction of non military targets.

Regards Tony

No... I read it....
1979..... Order for the destruction of the House of the Bab? That one?
1979 was a time when the Muslims of Iran were extremely excited and angry. They attacked embassies and 'yes' would have smashed up Bahai and Babi buildings. In Afghanistan they recently pulled down an amazing statue of the Buddha. They were persecuting in all sorts of directions at that time.

I'm sad that the Bab's house got torn down, but I'm surprised that it had survived so long, come to think of it.

Russian News more reliable proof?
Yes, Tony, a coupe of hundred million people have believed the Russian accounts.
How does it seem to you in Australia?

 

[RJM]

some ankle gated convicts

What did they do? Why should Baha'i not draw attention to their persecution in Iran on trumped-up charges of sedition and espionage under an authoritarian government that has made clear it wants to eradicate them, as a deviant cult?

Some posters here seem to believe the treatment of Baha'i in Iran is fine and actually quite mild, considering what a nasty bunch they really are.

This post is about the topic of this thread, what political ambitions Baha’is might have. In my earlier post, I was not suggesting that Baha’is in Iran should be speaking up about oppression against other people in Iran. My point was that Baha’is in other parts of the world have been publicly denouncing the government of Iran, stirring up animosity against it in all of society, trying to shame and intimidate it into changing its policies towards Baha’is, in open and blatant violation of their “no politics” rule. At the same time, they have used that rule as a reason to not ever say a word against oppression by any specific government against any group of people. That would be reason enough for me, if I didn’t have other reasons already, not to believe the claims of Baha’is that if they ever came to power, their principles would ensure that all people would be treated equally.

There are some vicious attacks against the Iranian government for its oppression of Baha’is, on the website of a Baha’i agency representing the Baha’is at the UN, without any mention of the oppression of any other specific government against any group or category of people.

Do you condemn the treatment of Baha'i in Iran?

 

[RJM]

Whatever the word games, this thread is being used to minimize and even justify the persecution of innocent people under an authoritarian government that makes clear it wants to get rid of them, for their religious belief, imo

 

[Longfellow]

Whatever the word games, this thread is being used to minimize and even justify the persecution of innocent people under an authoritarian government that makes clear it wants to get rid of them, for their religious belief, imo

Good point. I don’t want to be part of that, or associated with it, so I’ll stop posting here about the political ambitions of Baha’is. Even the person who started the thread is mostly posting off topic. I was curious and interested in what he thinks their ambitions are, but in 7 pages I haven’t seen anything that I didn’t already know, and I’m thinking now that I never will, in this thread.

(later) I also see that now he is posting, off topic, about the political ambitions of Baha’is in the thread about oppression against them, more than he is here, in the thread that he started allegedly for that purpose.

 

[RJM]

Good point. I don’t want to be part of that, or associated with it, so I’ll stop posting here about the political ambitions of Baha’is. Even the person who started the thread is mostly posting off topic. I was curious and interested in what he thinks their ambitions are, but in 7 pages I haven’t seen anything that I didn’t already know, and I’m thinking now that I never will, in this thread.

(later) I also see that now he is posting, off topic, about the political ambitions of Baha’is in the thread about oppression against them, more than he is here, in the thread that he started allegedly for that purpose.

Thanks, for the honesty. Yes, threads here do tend to wander. I apologise for where I share the blame.

Back to the topic: it appears the Baha'i 'constitution' precludes political activity, but that's all in the future perfect dream world proposed by the Baha'i -- a world I believe is never going to happen on this planet. People are people. Human nature is what it is ... the end justifies the means, etc

 

[badger]

What did they do?

That was reported in another thread.

Why should Baha'i not draw attention to their persecution in Iran

Freedom of speech in the West (mostly) and Freedom to reply (mostly).

on trumped-up charges of sedition and espionage under an authoritarian government that has made clear it wants to eradicate them, as a deviant cult?

You have very clear sight if you can be sure that the convictions (I don't care about arrests/charges) were 'trumped up.
And Iran is very clear about how it feels about Babis and Bahais, both.

Some posters here seem to believe the treatment of Baha'i in Iran is fine and actually quite mild, considering what a nasty bunch they really are.
Do you condemn the treatment of Baha'i in Iran?

Not every conviction of a Bahai is unlawful, or do you disagree?
I condemn any unlawful treatment of anybody.
I also mistrust Bahai claims about Iran and other things as well.

Deviant Cult?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bábism#Religious_law
Some of the new laws included changing the direction of the Qibla to the Báb's house in Shiraz, Iran and changing the calendar to a solar calendar of nineteen months and nineteen days ......................................[20]

............................While some statements in the Bayan show tolerance, there are other very harsh regulations in regards to relations with non-believers. For example, non-believers are forbidden to live in five central Iranian provinces, the holy places of previous religions are to be demolished, all non-Bábí books should be destroyed, believers are not to marry or sit in the company of non-believers, and the property of non-believers can be taken from them.[21] Some further ritual include elaborate regulations regarding pilgrimage, fasting, the manufacture of rings, the use of perfume, and the washing and disposal of the dead.[21]

 

[Thomas]

In an attempt to broach a broader context, I repeat the following –

Baha'is in more friendly places, I agree, it is a bit more telling how they position themselves regarding equal rights, within their own ranks and in general, for women, lgbtq people, and non-believers.

If the Baha'i is looking to oversee a global family, then these issues, and the issues of politics, will have to be addressed. Furthermore I'd say that the Baha'i message seems to be one of a universal egalitarianism that transcends all previous traditions, that have fallen into dispute, conflict, etc.

I'm not sure the top level of the Baha'i hierarchy would find itself justified within Baha'i beliefs to change the Most Holy Book. That might be asking too much.

They cannot.

That was my question about Baha'i theology ... a query never answered, and, from what I've seen online, 'theology' is discouraged.

But as with other religions, and especially ones claiming to be tailor made for present times, and which find themselves unable to express themselves in addressing our current situation, but instead resort to suppressing what they cannot face - I find them lacking, weighed and found too light, as one ancient text puts it. To my ear, they speak to the past, and an idealized past that would not have been recognizable to its inhabitants, at that.

The weight of humanist discourse in dialogue with the Baha'i is considerable. It seems is major selling point is an egalitarianism which, as you point out, is talked, but not walked ... or rather, the message is not at all tailored to the present, but located in a particular cultural past.

 

[RJM]

That was reported in another thread.

a charge of "propaganda activity against the system through the promotion of Baha'iism."

This satisfies you to refer to them repeatedly as 'ankle gated convicts'? *

Not every conviction of a Bahai is unlawful, or do you disagree?

Of course anyone can commit a crime. That is hardly the point

Iran is very clear about how it feels about Babis and Bahais, both.

Too right ...

* Rather than, say: prisoners of conscience, or victims of religious persecution?