Bahai ....... political ambitions?

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I really did not want my name to be associated with this thread, but my resistance to temptation has limits. I’m thinking that the popularity among Baha’i’s of publicly denouncing the oppression of Baha’is in Iran, at the same time that they are using the “no politics” rule to be silent about oppression against other groups and categories of people, is enough for me to disprove the theory that if Baha’is came to power, they would never oppress anyone or discriminate against anyone.

That’s not counting all the ways that Baha’is are already oppressing each other and other people, and finding excuses for it in their writings.

This is from the Baha'i World News Site.

“We ask everyone to raise their voice and call for these dreadful acts of blatant persecution to be immediately stopped. Every day this week there has been fresh news of persecution of the Baha’is in Iran, demonstrating unmistakably that the Iranian authorities have a step-by-step plan that they are implementing, first blatant lies and hate speech, then raids and arrests, and today land grabs, occupation and the destruction of homes,” said Diane Ala’i, a Baha’i International Community Representative to the United Nations. “Recalling the Iranian government policy documents about persecuting Baha’is, I wonder, what will be next? The international community must act before it is too late.”

So I guess that is why you see many Baha'i sharing these stories.

Regards Tony

 

[badger]

Baha'i are not the Iran human rights movement though?

I checked carefully and when I saw support for LGBT human rights I then knew that the IRHR group is not Baha'i controlled.

Do Jews and Zoroastrians and Christians make waves with the Iranian government about LGBT rights, or Baha'i rights? It's not America or the UK

Masses of Christian churches do, all over the world, but Bahá'ís..no.

But the IRHR group does.....why do you direct me to other organisations about this?
Ask Baha'i about LGBT rights and you probably won't get an answer. Let's see if we will now.......interesting.

 

[badger]

This would be a big read OB, a lot of this is covered in the 4 book series of The Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh.

https://www.bahaiblog.net/articles/books/revelation-bahaullah-books-adib-taherzadeh/

There are other sources as well. Sorry out of time at the moment.

Regards Tony

Ah ah...... I don't want to read another's account, I want to read what Bahauallah wrote about it.
Iv'e read too much of what looked to me like embellishment.
Yes, a mountain journey could be cold, but Bahauallah was looked after financially and securely..... I know what cold can do, I have Reynard condition

 

[badger]

That's what they do OB. Why did they destroy the House of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, which were owned by the Baha'i?

Regards Tony

No no.... Tony, if the local gov knocked those houses down then they had a reason..... mrym has already explained that the Iranian hov has been extra careful for 15 yes about all this .

Don't forget that the Babis were a revolutionary organisation, don't let's get to me having to show that.

The people can be volatile, when Charles ll was crowned the body of Cromwell was dug up and hanged. Revolutionaries get harsh responses.

 

[mrym]

No no.... Tony, if the local gov knocked those houses down then they had a reason..... mrym has already explained that the Iranian hov has been extra careful for 15 yes about all this .

Don't forget that the Babis were a revolutionary organisation, don't let's get to me having to show that.

The people can be volatile, when Charles ll was crowned the body of Cromwell was dug up and hanged. Revolutionaries get harsh responses.

I didn't say the government is extra "careful". I have said the government is extra "tyranical and anti-baha'i". being careful is a good thing; being a tyrant is not.

 

[RJM]

I checked carefully and when I saw support for LGBT human rights I then knew that the IRHR group is not Baha'i controlled.

Masses of Christian churches do, all over the world, but Bahá'ís..no.

But the IRHR group does.....why do you direct me to other organisations about this?
Ask Baha'i about LGBT rights and you probably won't get an answer. Let's see if we will now.......interesting.

But I was not talking about Baha'i lbgt attitudes. I was explaining why IN IRAN the Baha'i do not want to confront the government on general human rights issues -- neither do Jews, Zorastrians or Christians -- although the Iran human rights movement takes upon itself to do, as its stated duty to human rights in general. Basically they know it's a waste of air trying to change the attitudes of an Islamic state on such issues.

With no chance of success, why should they give the government a reason to accuse them of sedition and encouraging social unrest, etc. They've got enough grief as it is. I'm sure you do understand the point, so ...

 

[badger]

I didn't say the government is extra "careful". I have said the government is extra "tyranical and anti-baha'i". being careful is a good thing; being a tyrant is not.

Oh dear......all this ducking and dodging.... For 15 years the government has taken more care due to attention from human rights groups....
True or false? If false then please explain your earlier posts

 

[badger]

But I was not talking about Baha'i lbgt attitudes. I was explaining why IN IRAN the Baha'i do not want to confront the government on general human rights issues -- neither do Jews, Zorastrians or Christians -- as the Iran human rights movement takes upon itself to do? Basically they know it's a waste of air trying to change the attitudes of an Islamic state on such issues.

With no chance of success, why should they give the government a reason to accuse them of sedition and encouraging social unrest, etc. They've got enough grief as it is. I'm sure you do understand the point, so ...

I don't know what you're seeing, what I'm seeing is Baha'i complaining here and now about Iran's governments unfairness, but I don't see any thoughts for other minorities inside Iran.
I'll look to the IHRA for that.

 

[RJM]

but I don't see any thoughts for other minorities inside Iran.

Thoughts? Or spoken challenges to the government?

I'll look to the IHRA for that.

That is the stated remit of the IRHG, the duty they take upon themselves. BUT faith groups in Iran do not assume that duty, for the obvious reason it will draw persecution upon themselves -- or increased persecution in the case of the Baha'i. The Iran human rights group are not the Baha'i, and the Baha'i are not them.

 

[RJM]

The IRHG are a protest and civil rights organisation, the Baha'i are something different -- as are the Jews, Zorastrians and Christians IN IRAN.

 

[badger]

Thoughts? Or spoken challenges to the government?

Not within Iran...... I wouldn't suggest that any citizen of Iran challenge its government at all..... but here on a western forum there is more provision for opinions, as can be seen....

That is the stated remit of the IRHG, the duty they take upon themselves. BUT faith groups in Iran do not assume that duty, for the obvious reason it will draw persecution upon themselves -- or increased persecution in the case of the Baha'i. The Iran human rights group are not the Baha'i, and the Baha'i are not them.

Indeed, that group also expresses its concerns over suppression of the million Christians living there, who are closely watched....... you can read about that as well, if you like.

But many Christian churches recognise LGBT groups today..... You are a Catholic, yes? I think the Catholic Church is changing policies over time, I downloaded a copy of Dei Verbum 1965 that @Thomas linked, several months ago..... so the Catholic Church can adjust its viewpoint on circumstances as well...yes? I wonder if Bahai ever will?

 

[badger]

The IRHG are a protest and civil rights organisation, the Baha'i are something different -- as are the Jews, Zorastrians and Christians IN IRAN.

Yes.... please see my previous post to this.

 

[badger]

This is from the Baha'i World News Site.

“We ask everyone to raise their voice and call for these dreadful acts of blatant persecution to be immediately stopped. Every day this week there has been fresh news of persecution of the Baha’is in Iran, demonstrating unmistakably that the Iranian authorities have a step-by-step plan that they are implementing, first blatant lies and hate speech, then raids and arrests, and today land grabs, occupation and the destruction of homes,” said Diane Ala’i, a Baha’i International Community Representative to the United Nations. “Recalling the Iranian government policy documents about persecuting Baha’is, I wonder, what will be next? The international community must act before it is too late.”

So I guess that is why you see many Baha'i sharing these stories.

Regards Tony

I wonder what Diane Ala’i would like 'the International Community' to do?
Any ideas?

 

[mrym]

Oh dear......all this ducking and dodging.... For 15 years the government has taken more care due to attention from human rights groups....
True or false? If false then please explain your earlier posts

I wouldn't call it "care". They are more like trying to do their evil actions in a way that wont provoke direct criticism. You'd call that "care"? Well I wont.

Hey by the way, u had asked about a book or something which you can read on the historical events of the life of Bahaullah. There's a wonderful you can read even if just for the pleasure of reading it. It is called "Robe of Light" by David Ruhe. I dont know if any free online versions of it can be found though.

 

[RJM]

Not within Iran...... I wouldn't suggest that any citizen of Iran challenge its government at all

What I said

Indeed, that group also expresses its concerns over suppression of the million Christians living there, who are closely watched ...

What I said. The IRHG takes upon itself the duty of calling up all human rights issues in Iran. It's what they do. It's their reason for existence. They are not however a faith group based in Iran.

But many Christian churches recognise LGBT groups today..

So? What has that to do with Baha'i speaking out about their treatment in Iran?

 

[badger]

I wouldn't call it "care". They are more like trying to do their evil actions in a way that wont provoke direct criticism. You'd call that "care"? Well I wont.

Hey by the way, u had asked about a book or something which you can read on the historical events of the life of Bahaullah. There's a wonderful you can read even if just for the pleasure of reading it. It is called "Robe of Light" by David Ruhe. I dont know if any free online versions of it can be found though.

Thank you for offering that, mrym. I have and would read any writings by Bahauallah.

 

[badger]

What I said
What I said. The IRHG takes upon itself the duty of calling up all human rights issues in Iran. It's what they do. It's their reason for existence. They are not however a faith group based in Iran.
So? What has that to do with Baha'i speaking out about their treatment in Iran?

Two 'what we saids'..... That ain't bad.
And....
Because gays are getting crane hanged on occasions.... That puts LGBT issues way above Baha'i ones at this time, don't you think,?

 

[RJM]

Two 'what we saids'..... That ain't bad.
And....
Because gays are getting crane hanged on occasions.... That puts LGBT issues way above Baha'i ones at this time, don't you think,?

We are talking past each other

 

[badger]

We are talking past each other

Probably.

 

[Cino]

Well, I can see the Iranian Baha'is not wanting to stick out their heads. Iran is definitely not what we'd call a modern liberal democracy.

Baha'is in more friendly places, I agree, it is a bit more telling how they position themselves regarding equal rights, within their own ranks and in general, for women, lgbtq people, and non-believers.

I'm not sure the top level of the Baha'i hierarchy would find itself justified within Baha'i beliefs to change the Most Holy Book. That might be asking too much.

But as with other religions, and especially ones claiming to be tailor made for present times, and which find themselves unable to express themselves in addressing our current situation, but instead resort to suppressing what they cannot face - I find them lacking, weighed and found too light, as one ancient text puts it. To my ear, they speak to the past, and an idealized past that would not have been recognizable to its inhabitants, at that.

Denial and suppression, which the Baha'is in Iran are facing : terrible! And yet, their spiritual hierarchy is busy denying and suppressing basic human rights: equality before the law, regardless of the shape of one's body parts, or the stirrings of one's heart.