Bahai ....... political ambitions?

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In a recent Trial in Iran, a number of Bahais were convicted of offences and imprisoned. This thread doesn't address that trial, its evidence, nor its verdicts... it is about the Bahai defence claims and the country's prosecution claims about the nature of Bahai, thus:-

Bahai Defence was based upon:- (quoting parts of a report by www.rferl.org )
The Baha’i International Community has repeatedly rejected the charges, calling them completely “baseless” and prompted solely because of their religious beliefs and activities.
and :-
Baha’is — who number some 300,000 in Iran and have an estimated 5 million followers worldwide — say they face systematic persecution in Iran, where their faith is not officially recognized in the constitution.

The Country of Iran and its Court of Appeals judged:-
The Court of Appeals rejected the defendants’ defense that Baha’is do not get involved in political work, citing a statement by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1962, which said that the Baha’i sect is not a religion, but a political party, and declared them as outcasts.

So the object of this thread is to discuss, Does Bahai have Political Ambitions?

I want to make posts each morning (GMT) to consider this particular question.
 
So the object of this thread is to discuss, Does Bahai have Political Ambitions?

The Baha'i clearly have no political ambitions OB. I am sure I have posted that recently.

Since this is started, I will offer a Message from the Universal House of Justice that addresses this topic.

https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...-of-justice/messages/20170427_001/1#362945323

Extract.

THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE

DEPARTMENT OF THE SECRETARIAT

27 April 2017

[To an individual]

Dear Bahá’í Friend,

The Universal House of Justice has received your email letter of 31 January 2017 in which you seek guidance on the latitude Bahá’ís have to engage in social action and public discourse, particularly in relation to the principle of non-involvement in political affairs. We have been asked to convey the following.

Your heartfelt desire to apply the principles of the Faith to address the ills of society is warmly acknowledged. The House of Justice agrees with many of your thoughtful points and wishes to provide some additional ideas for your consideration.

As you are no doubt well aware, in discussing the principle of non-involvement in politics, Shoghi Effendi wrote that Bahá’ís are to “refrain from associating themselves, whether by word or by deed, with the political pursuits of their respective nations, with the policies of their governments and the schemes and programs of parties and factions.” In political controversies, they “should assign no blame, take no side, further no design, and identify themselves with no system prejudicial to the best interests” of their “world-wide Fellowship”. They are called to “avoid the entanglements and bickerings inseparable from the pursuits of the politician”. And they are to “rise above all particularism and partisanship, above the vain disputes, the petty calculations, the transient passions that agitate the face, and engage the attention, of a changing world.” Bahá’ís and Bahá’í institutions should not take positions on the political decisions of governments, including disputes among governments of different nations; should refrain from becoming involved in debates surrounding any political controversy; and should not react, orally or otherwise, in a manner that could be taken as evidence of support for a partisan political stance. It is not for a Bahá’í, in offering social commentary, to vilify specific individuals, organizations, or governments or to make attacks on them. Indeed, the Guardian specifically cautioned the friends against referring to political figures in their public remarks, whether in criticism or support.

Furthermore, Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá enjoined Bahá’ís to be obedient to the government of their land. Unity, order, and cooperation are the basis for sound and lasting change. Even civil disobedience, in the form of a conscious decision to violate the law to effect social change, is not acceptable for Bahá’ís—whatever merit it appears to have had in particular political settings. Ultimately, obedience to government has a bearing on the unity of the Bahá’í community itself. In a letter written on his behalf, Shoghi Effendi stated that individual Bahá’ís should not become immersed in the “faulty systems of the world” or judge their government as “just or unjust—for each believer would be sure to hold a different viewpoint, and within our own Bahá’í fold a hotbed of dissension would spring up and destroy our unity.” These considerations, however, do not imply an endorsement of the actions or policies of one’s government. As Shoghi Effendi explained in another letter written on his behalf: “The principle of obedience to government does not place any Bahá’í under the obligation of identifying the teachings of his Faith with the political program enforced by the government. For such an identification, besides being erroneous and contrary to both the spirit as well as the form of the Bahá’í message, would necessarily create a conflict within the conscience of every loyal believer.”

The principles of non-involvement in politics and obedience to government, far from being obstacles to social change, are aspects of an approach set forth in the Bahá’í writings to implement effective remedies for and address the root causes of the ills afflicting society. This approach includes active involvement in the life of society as well as the possibility of influencing and contributing to the social policies of government by all lawful means. Indeed, service to others and to society is a hallmark of the Bahá’í life. And Shoghi Effendi has explained that “the machinery of the Cause has been so fashioned, that whatever is deemed necessary to incorporate into it in order to keep it in the forefront of all progressive movements, can, according to the provisions made by Bahá’u’lláh, be safely embodied therein.” The way in which Bahá’ís seek to effect social change is described in the 2 March 2013 message of the House of Justice to the Bahá’ís of Iran. A copy of that message is enclosed for your study...."

Regards Tony
 
The Baha'i clearly have no political ambitions OB. I am sure I have posted that recently.

Since this is started, I will offer a Message from the Universal House of Justice that addresses this topic.

https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...-of-justice/messages/20170427_001/1#362945323

Regards Tony

Wow, a big take-off for this thread, and thank you for your input.

So that is the official Baha'i reply to such questions and this thread.

I want to consider the Iranian position as well, because Ayatollah Khomeini's statement of over 50 years ago still holds in Iranian courts, it seems, and that is a crucial statement because whereas Judaism, Zororasttianism and Christianity are recognised as religions and (under certain conditions) left alone, Baha'i is not, and so I want to research all that for what it's worth.

We've messed up so many swords over this Tony that we should have joined a reenactment group. But o r never considered the position from Iran's view.
 
Thank you both for this thread. I am interested in the topic, in General, not specifically about Baha'i believers.

My own take is that there are no ideologies without actors. If I sit in my room and dream up a scheme for world peace or world domination, nothing will happen, unless I start to act on it, and perhaps convince other people to act in accordance.

This is, by the way, my big problem with some fellow atheists' take on religion, namely that a book of scripture is somehow self-active, that a scroll from some forgotten faith buried in a cave could, once recovered and decyphered, induce people to believe in its contents and take up arms to spread the message. This is demonstrably nonsense, as we have decyphered the sacred texts of the Assyrian Empire and yet, it has not risen from the dust to once more dominate the Middle East. Likewise, I think, any other ideology needs to spread by being enacted, it cannot somehow take over the minds of random people. Rather, it has always, in history, been actors with an agenda who used ideology for their ends.

So, against that background, I'm interested how Baha'is today think about clearly political subset of the laws contained in the Most Holy Book. Are they dormant until such a time when the conditions are conducive to their implementation? Or will there just never be a body of Baha'i believers who will try to enforce them (like the more communist-looking passages in the Christian Bible which are so far removed from current Christian sensibities that no-one would recognize them as Christian any more)?

What are your thoughts?
 
Thank you both for this thread. I am interested in the topic, in General, not specifically about Baha'i believers.

My own take is that there are no ideologies without actors. If I sit in my room and dream up a scheme for world peace or world domination, nothing will happen, unless I start to act on it, and perhaps convince other people to act in accordance.

This is, by the way, my big problem with some fellow atheists' take on religion, namely that a book of scripture is somehow self-active, that a scroll from some forgotten faith buried in a cave could, once recovered and decyphered, induce people to believe in its contents and take up arms to spread the message. This is demonstrably nonsense, as we have decyphered the sacred texts of the Assyrian Empire and yet, it has not risen from the dust to once more dominate the Middle East. Likewise, I think, any other ideology needs to spread by being enacted, it cannot somehow take over the minds of random people. Rather, it has always, in history, been actors with an agenda who used ideology for their ends.

So, against that background, I'm interested how Baha'is today think about clearly political subset of the laws contained in the Most Holy Book. Are they dormant until such a time when the conditions are conducive to their implementation? Or will there just never be a body of Baha'i believers who will try to enforce them (like the more communist-looking passages in the Christian Bible which are so far removed from current Christian sensibities that no-one would recognize them as Christian any more)?

What are your thoughts?
Very good points, imo. Thank you Cino.
I particularly clicked on your last para.

I'll get going with this just as soon as I've prepared the next post.

Thank you again
 
I've been non-partisan... an independent voter (unaffiliated with any political party) for years as a Baha'i. In the voting booth I vote but I'm strictly non-partisan.

I quote from Bahaipedia:

The Bahá’í teachings on politics and political participation rest on the foundation that mankind is one unified organic whole, that kings and rulers should concern themselves with the well-being of their citizens,[1] and that an individual's primary concern should be with that which is unifying and promotes the common good of all people.[2] The Bahá’í Faith therefore prohibits discussion of partisan politics, participation in political organizations, or affiliation with political parties; all of which divide participants into separate camps each vying against the other in the promotion of their ideas and agendas.[3][4] In countries with civil elections Bahá’ís are permitted to vote unless doing so requires association with a political party. And Bahá’ís who vote in civil elections should do so based on the merits of the individual, and not the individual's political association.[5]

Two related principles in the Bahá’í teachings are consultation and obedience to one's government. Consultation in the Bahá’í Faith refers to a method of solving problems that is characterized as a "spiritual conference in the attitude and atmosphere of love", and requires individuals to consider the ideas and views of others while being detached from their own.[6] In relation to one's government, Bahá’u’lláh states "A just king is the shadow of God on earth"[7] and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said Bahá’ís "must obey and be the well-wishers of the governments of the land, regard disloyalty unto a just king as disloyalty to God Himself and wishing evil to the government a transgression of the Cause of God."[8] Bahá’ís are therefore prohibited from engaging in civil disobedience, which is "a conscious decision to violate the law to effect social change".[9]

Contents
https://bahaipedia.org/Politics
 
We've messed up so many swords over this Tony that we should have joined a reenactment group. But o r never considered the position from Iran's view.

If a person wishes to understand this, then an effort must be made to understand the history of both Islam and how and why the Baha'i Faith was born in an age where Islam as practice, was not a reflection of the Quran.

Why do you think world embracing peace loving people are suppressed?

Regards Tony
 
So that is the official Baha'i reply to such questions and this thread.

Please be clear OB, that is not an official response to your post, that is an example of what is offered to an Individual believer who ask about involvement in actions that may have connection to political matters. It contained official statements about what Baha'i need to consider.

I can only offer the Writings on these topics, I cannot give an "Official Baha'i Response".

If one wants an official response, that would mean one would have to ask the Universal House of Justice. I would offer though, they are very, very busy doing this already.

So I will post a letter that was written in 2013 to the Baha'i of Iran about the Political situation.

https://www.bahai.org/documents/the-universal-house-of-justice/bahais-iran-20130302_001

This needs to be read in full, Here is an extract.

".. Historically, of course, the position in which the Iranian Bahá’í community has found itself in this respect has been a peculiar one. It has been falsely accused, on the one hand, of being politically motivated, leagued against the prevailing regime—the agent of whatever foreign power the accuser finds most convenient to his purpose. On the other hand, the uncompromising refusal of the members of the community to participate in partisan political activity has been portrayed as a lack of concern for the affairs of the Iranian people. Now that the true intentions of your oppressors have been laid bare, it behoves you to respond to the growing interest of your fellow citizens in understanding the Bahá’í attitude towards politics, lest misconceptions be allowed to weaken the bonds of friendship you are establishing with so many souls. In this, they deserve more than a few statements, however important, that evoke images of love and unity. To assist you in conveying to them a vision of the framework that shapes the Bahá’í approach to the subject, we are providing you with the comments below..."

So one must choose to read what advice the Universal House of Justice has provided the Iranian Baha'i on these issues. It is lengthy, so it will also take an honest desire to seek a just view of this topic.

Regards Tony
 
Personally I need to reread a lot of these messages, I see I have not been true to this advice. The thing I have found is that we can do much damage, in the thought we were trying to help.

"....Bahá’ís respect those who, out of a sincere desire to serve their countries, choose to pursue political aspirations or to engage in political activity. The approach adopted by the Bahá’í community of non-involvement in such activity is not intended as a statement expressing some fundamental objection to politics in its true sense; indeed, humanity organizes itself through its political affairs. Bahá’ís vote in civil elections, as long as they do not have to identify themselves with any party in order to do so. In this connection, they view government as a system for maintaining the welfare and orderly progress of a society, and they undertake, one and all, to observe the laws of the land in which they reside, without allowing their inner religious beliefs to be violated. Bahá’ís will not be party to any instigation to overthrow a government. Nor will they interfere in political relations between the governments of different nations. This does not mean that they are naive about political processes in the world today and make no distinction between just and tyrannical rule. The rulers of the earth have sacred obligations to fulfil towards their people, who should be seen as the most precious treasure of any nation. Wherever they reside, Bahá’ís endeavour to uphold the standard of justice, addressing inequities directed towards themselves or towards others, but only through lawful means available to them, eschewing all forms of violent protest..."

When I read such advice, I slither back into the dirt I come from and wish I had not said many things I have in the past.

But such is life, tomorrow another day, another chance to change my own self.

Regards Tony
 
I've been non-partisan... an independent voter (unaffiliated with any political party) for years as a Baha'i. In the voting booth I vote but I'm strictly non-partisan.

I quote from Bahaipedia:

The Bahá’í teachings on politics and political participation rest on the foundation that mankind is one unified organic whole, that kings and rulers should concern themselves with the well-being of their citizens,[1] and that an individual's primary concern should be with that which is unifying and promotes the common good of all people.[2] The Bahá’í Faith therefore prohibits discussion of partisan politics, participation in political organizations, or affiliation with political parties; all of which divide participants into separate camps each vying against the other in the promotion of their ideas and agendas.[3][4] In countries with civil elections Bahá’ís are permitted to vote unless doing so requires association with a political party. And Bahá’ís who vote in civil elections should do so based on the merits of the individual, and not the individual's political association.[5]

Two related principles in the Bahá’í teachings are consultation and obedience to one's government. Consultation in the Bahá’í Faith refers to a method of solving problems that is characterized as a "spiritual conference in the attitude and atmosphere of love", and requires individuals to consider the ideas and views of others while being detached from their own.[6] In relation to one's government, Bahá’u’lláh states "A just king is the shadow of God on earth"[7] and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said Bahá’ís "must obey and be the well-wishers of the governments of the land, regard disloyalty unto a just king as disloyalty to God Himself and wishing evil to the government a transgression of the Cause of God."[8] Bahá’ís are therefore prohibited from engaging in civil disobedience, which is "a conscious decision to violate the law to effect social change".[9]

Contents
https://bahaipedia.org/Politics
Hello arthra,
Thank you for showing the Bahai teachings.
I don't think that the Iranian government is listening to or believing in Bahai teachings, do you?

One firm rule that I have noticed, shown by you is :-
Two related principles in the Bahá’í teachings are consultation and obedience to one's government.
I don't think that the Iranian government trusts Bahais to keep Iranian laws.

I don't know anybody who likes the Iranian government.
A large % of Muslims in the world don't seem to like Shia Islam either.... so Iran is a bit short of friends.
But on your own thread about nastiness to Bahais in Iran a Bahai who doesn't like Iran (has claimed that friends are executed every day there!) has already written that women in Iran can be educated to a high enough standard to be given high jobs like Sales Manager in companies owned and run by Shia Muslims. We also hear that when/if Bahais break laws which attract prison sentences that these can be reduced to time spent at home.

This thread is going to attempt to peek in to the Iranian system to discover what Iran thinks about Bahai, which won't be paying much attention to Bahai's claims, I think.
 
If a person wishes to understand this, then an effort must be made to understand the history of both Islam and how and why the Baha'i Faith was born in an age where Islam as practice, was not a reflection of the Quran.

Why do you think world embracing peace loving people are suppressed?

Regards Tony
Morning Tony! (UK GMT)
I'm interested in and about what the Iranian government thinks and decides today, Tony.
The Iranian government, even when ruled by the Shah's, considered Bahai to be an insidious usurper and revolutionary. So Bahai's ideas about history can't help in this investigation very much.
 
Please be clear OB, that is not an official response to your post, that is an example of what is offered to an Individual believer who ask about involvement in actions that may have connection to political matters. It contained official statements about what Baha'i need to consider.

I can only offer the Writings on these topics, I cannot give an "Official Baha'i Response".
Wow! You're touchy today....... even when I give you full credit for a post you ain't happy! :D

If one wants an official response, that would mean one would have to ask the Universal House of Justice. I would offer though, they are very, very busy doing this already.

So I will post a letter that was written in 2013 to the Baha'i of Iran about the Political situation.

https://www.bahai.org/documents/the-universal-house-of-justice/bahais-iran-20130302_001

This needs to be read in full, Here is an extract.

".. Historically, of course, the position in which the Iranian Bahá’í community has found itself in this respect has been a peculiar one. It has been falsely accused, on the one hand, of being politically motivated, leagued against the prevailing regime—the agent of whatever foreign power the accuser finds most convenient to his purpose. On the other hand, the uncompromising refusal of the members of the community to participate in partisan political activity has been portrayed as a lack of concern for the affairs of the Iranian people. Now that the true intentions of your oppressors have been laid bare, it behoves you to respond to the growing interest of your fellow citizens in understanding the Bahá’í attitude towards politics, lest misconceptions be allowed to weaken the bonds of friendship you are establishing with so many souls. In this, they deserve more than a few statements, however important, that evoke images of love and unity. To assist you in conveying to them a vision of the framework that shapes the Bahá’í approach to the subject, we are providing you with the comments below..."

So one must choose to read what advice the Universal House of Justice has provided the Iranian Baha'i on these issues. It is lengthy, so it will also take an honest desire to seek a just view of this topic.

Regards Tony

As you can see, arthra has provided a response from the Universal House of Justice on the subject of politics and Bahai.
I don't think that the Iranian government believes it, Tony; this thread seeks to try and find out why it doesn't.
 
Religious Courts in Iran?

Apart from Iran's government which seems to be a Theocracy, I expect that religions in Iran also have their own kinds of 'courts', committees, boards and assemblies. If anybody knows about Christian, Zoroastrian or Jewish courts in Iran then please can you confirm or deny about these for us? English literature tells us about the Diocesan Courts in Victorian England (still running then) and the Church of England still has massive leverage to this day (here) so the fact that Bahai has local and a national spiritual assembly (a kind of Bahai governing body in Iran) does not of itself show the Iranian government that Bahai is a political movement. Even the bowls club (if there is one) has a controlling body in Iran.

So, of itself, the Bahai assembly system doesn't show Iran that it seeks political influence.

So why does Iran treat Bahai as a political party and outcast?
Moving forward...... tomorrow morning GMT.
 
Personally I need to reread a lot of these messages, I see I have not been true to this advice. The thing I have found is that we can do much damage, in the thought we were trying to help.

"....Bahá’ís respect those who, out of a sincere desire to serve their countries, choose to pursue political aspirations or to engage in political activity. The approach adopted by the Bahá’í community of non-involvement in such activity is not intended as a statement expressing some fundamental objection to politics in its true sense; indeed, humanity organizes itself through its political affairs. Bahá’ís vote in civil elections, as long as they do not have to identify themselves with any party in order to do so. In this connection, they view government as a system for maintaining the welfare and orderly progress of a society, and they undertake, one and all, to observe the laws of the land in which they reside, without allowing their inner religious beliefs to be violated. Bahá’ís will not be party to any instigation to overthrow a government. Nor will they interfere in political relations between the governments of different nations. This does not mean that they are naive about political processes in the world today and make no distinction between just and tyrannical rule. The rulers of the earth have sacred obligations to fulfil towards their people, who should be seen as the most precious treasure of any nation. Wherever they reside, Bahá’ís endeavour to uphold the standard of justice, addressing inequities directed towards themselves or towards others, but only through lawful means available to them, eschewing all forms of violent protest..."

When I read such advice, I slither back into the dirt I come from and wish I had not said many things I have in the past.

But such is life, tomorrow another day, another chance to change my own self.

Regards Tony

Tony, you have to be one of the most knowledgeable Bahais around, so please stop beating yourself up.

It does look as if a Bahai could become an Independant councillor in a town's council, or possibly even an Independent MP in a Western government..... that might actually be quite a plus for Bahai.......... or not..... you tell me, but that cannot help to move the opinions of the Iranian Government, successive ones which have mistrusted and hated Bahai for nearly 200 years if you include the rise of the Babis.

So now I'm going to slither back in to my dirty clothes and be a slave for this day because my wife has decided that we are going to strip, prepare and decorate the hall this weekend. I'll be dirtier than you, Tony.
 
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As you can see, arthra has provided a response from the Universal House of Justice on the subject of politics and Bahai.
I don't think that the Iranian government believes it, Tony; this thread seeks to try and find out why it doesn't.

That will exclude me OB.

All the best, Regards Tony
 
Iran is an Islamic state. Islam regards Muhammad (pbuh) as the final prophet. It is a strong article of faith. Baha'i is regarded as apostate from Islam. Khamenei describes it as deviant and a cult. Apostates from Islam are not well treated in Islamic states.

Trumped up charges of plotting and spying by authoritarian governments have no credibility
 
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my wife has decided that we are going to strip, prepare and decorate the hall this weekend. I'll be dirtier than you, Tony

Have fun OB, we just finished the Bathroom renovation! Luckily it is a small one.

20220826_081701.jpg


Regards Tony
 
Have fun OB, we just finished the Bathroom renovation! Luckily it is a small one.

Regards Tony
Looks brilliant Tony...... We finished our bathroom four weeks ago..... and a similar colour scheme! Our ladies have been reading 'home' mags..... it's all about 'grey' at present.
P1020878.JPG
 
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