There is no justice if atheism is true

[muhammad_isa]

Oh, and in my atheist view, absolutely no-one gets away with anything. We shall all die, rich and poor alike, saint and sinner alike. No way around that.

Death is not a punishment. It is not necessarily something undesirable.

If we want to be fair or just, if we want fairness and justice to increase, now is the time. No putting it off to a future life.

The idea of Divine justice says little about the beliefs of a person. It is not singling out atheists.
As @Tone Bristow-Stagg says "No one gets away with any injustice, faith or no faith, absolutely no one."

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

You can't understand religion by cherry-picking a couple of verses that appears to
mean what you want it to mean.

Ask the Pope what he thinks about Divine justice [after death], for example

Reply removed at user's own request

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

They had a wrong idea, unless they were repentant, imo.

There are stories of Mexican gangsters asking absolution in advance for intended murders. Total misconception ...

1 Peter 3:21
"And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also – not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (NIV)

1 Corinthians 6:11
"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (, NIV)

Reply removed at user's own request

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

Death is not a punishment. It is not necessarily something undesirable.

The idea of Divine justice says little about the beliefs of a person. It is not singling out atheists.
As @Tone Bristow-Stagg says "No one gets away with any injustice, faith or no faith, absolutely no one."

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[RJM]

Not according to Christian scripture

In the context of repentance

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

In the context of repentance

Reply removed at user's own request

 

[Cino]

The idea of Divine justice says little about the beliefs of a person. It is not singling out atheists.
As @Tone Bristow-Stagg says "No one gets away with any injustice, faith or no faith, absolutely no one."

To my understanding, the word "divine" in "divine justice" says it all - it is a concept that is fully within the domain of individual, subjective belief.

I am not worried (in this context) about singling out atheists. I'm trying to pin-point why we are all so obviously and frustratingly talking at cross-purposes here.

My hunch is that it may be a case of "confusing the planes", or making assumptions about common points of reference that are not adequate.

If I said, "There is no justice if Theism is true", would you point out to me how the concept of human justice says little about a person's beliefs?

 

[Aupmanyav]

"There is no justice if atheism is true"
A correct belief [orthodox] teaches that Divine justice after death is true.
Billions of people believe it.

Correct for you, incorrect for me as there is no evidence. Billions of people believing it does not make it correct.

 

[wil]

I am fully confused as to the intent of thos thread. From its title to its first post and the direction of the remainder of the conversation, color me lost.

 

[badger]

Right !
In your belief, it is possible to escape justice.
Not in mine.

What is your belief?

 

[badger]

You can't understand religion by cherry-picking a couple of verses that appears to
mean what you want it to mean.

The above was sent to another member....
True..... I for one don't understand religion.
But I know a bit about the gospels and (for example) I don't think that Jesus said too much about Justice in an afterlife.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That post was about an absolute claim equating atheism with an utter lack of justice. Many posts were made countering that claim, which you did not address. You told us about your beliefs.

However it has been understood by others.

I have addressed the statement in the heading of the OP, in the context that Ahanu gave it.

So if Athiesim is true, there is no Justice. As Justice must be faced by every person, if there is true justice.

The only way that happens is if God given Messages are correct. They all say we will stand before God when we pass from this life and face our judgement.

Everyone will be judged, whereas in this material world, there are people that think they get away with injustice, greed, preudices, etc etc, with faith, or no faith.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Then Christian scripture is a lie. How do you know what goes on after this life? don't tell me your 'god' is talking to you, telling you this.

Or, I would offer that most likely some people have incorrectly understood the Bible, the Bible is sure spiritual guidance, a noble gospel.

I dream, I know I am more than this material life.

I have flown, I have touched a dove in this unrestricted flight, it burst into brilliant white light, it allowed me to experienced more immense love and joy than a billion lives in this world could ever offer.

I also offer Baha'u'llah was a Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The Bab asked Babis to take the property of those who did not follow him. Will those who obeyed get told off by your God or congratulated?

And do you need me to show you where the Bab wrote such things?

One has to understand why the Bab wrote the Bayan when he knew his Revelation would.only last 9 years. It was to make a distinction between Islam and the New Message given of God and to prepare the way for the coming of the "One whom God would make Manifest".

The laws were not meant to be practiced, they were more of a help to Baha'u'llah. One such passage that shows the purpose of His revelation was to awaken the people to assist the Promised One to come after Him, rather than to carry out the observances in the Bayan:

"...the sum total of the religion of God is but to help Him, rather than to observe, in the time of His appearance, such deeds as are prescribed in the Bayan...."
(The Báb, The Persian Bayan, Selections from the Writings of the Báb, p. 85) http://www.bahai.org/r/488755766

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I wouldn't bank on it..
A person with that attitude might find that they die in disbelief.
..and there is no person on earth who is exempt from suffering after death, even though they might repent.
Have you not heard of purgatory?

Baha'u'llah has offered no one should become proud because of faith, I like this advice.

".. He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!"
Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 265

We must find humility and commitment to a faith of deeds, not words.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I am fully confused as to the intent of thos thread. From its title to its first post and the direction of the remainder of the conversation, color me lost.

I think many have a misunderstanding of what the topic heading is saying.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

How do you know what Roman Emperors felt on their deathbed? It could very well have been that they truly felt sorry for their wrongdoings and truly desired to be forgiven. And given that this is what Baptism is about, then Christian scripture allows for someone to live their life in complete tyranny and then be 'saved' at the last moment. Utter nonsense . . .

No, it is not nonsense.
Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness.

Suffering in purgatory could go on for a very long time.
One would hope, that through sincere repentance, the suffering would be lightened somewhat.

 

[muhammad_isa]

To my understanding, the word "divine" in "divine justice" says it all - it is a concept that is fully within the domain of individual, subjective belief.

I use the word "Divine" [capital 'D'] as in God [capital 'G'], in the Abrahamic sense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..But I know a bit about the gospels and (for example) I don't think that Jesus said too much about Justice in an afterlife.

Oh yes he did. Example:-

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
- Luke 13 -

 

[RJM]

I don't think that Jesus said too much about Justice in an afterlife.

The Rich Man and Lazarus

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Luke 16:19-31