There is no justice if atheism is true

There is a story of a famous early Christian – a Syrian mystic, I believe. The name escapes me, but he's around 5th century. Anyway, he was locked in a bitter dispute with two philosophers over the Catholic faith.

One night he had a dream. He was on the edge of a pit, and there, sliding down the pit into the depths of hell were his two opponents. He sat watching them slowly slide to their doom, occasionally rolling rocks down on them as they tried to scrabble free. He noticed a third man climbing down towards them, and realised this man was trying to save them. So he launched himself down to contend with this third man, and argue that the two should be allowed to fall to their doom.

But when he drew close, he realised the man was Jesus. "I keep trying to save them," Jesus said, reaching out to the two men. "You keep trying to push them in."

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Was it a dream? Was it a 'mystical moment'? Was it somewhere between the two? The psychological element of the dream is self-evident.

We can read it as we choose, but the story stays the same.
 
Thomas said:
There is a story of a famous early Christian – a Syrian mystic, I believe. The name escapes me, but he's around 5th century. Anyway, he was locked in a bitter dispute with two philosophers over the Catholic faith.

One night he had a dream. He was on the edge of a pit, and there, sliding down the pit into the depths of hell were his two opponents. He sat watching them slowly slide to their doom, occasionally rolling rocks down on them as they tried to scrabble free. He noticed a third man climbing down towards them, and realised this man was trying to save them. So he launched himself down to contend with this third man, and argue that the two should be allowed to fall to their doom.

But when he drew close, he realised the man was Jesus. "I keep trying to save them," Jesus said, reaching out to the two men. "You keep trying to push them in."

+++

Was it a dream? Was it a 'mystical moment'? Was it somewhere between the two? The psychological element of the dream is self-evident.

We can read it as we choose, but the story stays the same.
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I see that why we are still breathing in this matrix, that Jesus the Christ has always got the hand out to save us. We are drawn towards our judgement.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Regards Tony
 
But why should there be justice? Why should man expect personal (human) justice of creation?
 
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
The only way that happens is if God given Messages are correct. They all say we will stand before God when we pass from this life and face our judgement.
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Gods message may be correct, but it was transmitted through someone. What is the guarantee that the person did not make a hash of it?
That is why it is necessary that God talk to us directly. Perhaps God said something else.
 
But there's no way to think that the ways of the universe should be restricted to within the limits of our human animal perceptions -- of which our scientific instruments and microscopes and telescopes are really just an ingenious extension.

There should be a lot more -- perhaps infinitely more -- than we can come even close to imagine?

I believe there are seers who glimpse beyond the veil ... and we all get echoes of the greater reality that weaves the natural time&space dimension in which we are bound ...
 
muhammad_isa said:
I would have thought that it was quite obvious..
Do you appreciate getting robbed or assaulted?
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Does the zebra appreciate getting eaten by the lion? Does the lion appreciate starvation because the zebra got away? We have human laws and justice. But why should there be an existence beyond death? There is no cause to expect anyone else to assume there is? Why should they?
 
I believe a person who has felt the 'touch' of God knows. Scriptures only confirm it, and teachers only guide toward it. Imo
 
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RJM said:
Does the zebra appreciate getting eaten by the lion? Does the lion appreciate starvation because the zebra got away?
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We are not talking about other creatures, atm.

RJM said:
We have human laws and justice. But why should there be an existence beyond death?
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..because life would just be a series of "coincidences" otherwise, which makes no sense to me.
Maybe you will say that I'm a bit weird or something.. ;)
..but billions of people think the same.

RJM said:
There is no cause to expect anyone else to assume there is? Why should they?
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Hmm.. I don't know about that.
Most people have heard about God, but don't think that they "need" Him,
and so carry on with "business as usual".

Almighty God is aware of what He created.
..everything is only for a time..
 
Aupmanyav said:
Life is a coincidence from right before the inception. Why did the sperm that resulted in you alone got to fertilize the ovum?
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There is no soul in that .. no intelligence .. no person.
I wasn't referring to that, in any case.

I was thinking more about our conscious awareness of everything around us.
Is life just about seeing who can get rich quick? etc.
No, it has to be more significant than that.

It's there in the Bible and Qur'an.
We have been given guidance, but how many take it seriously?
How many realise the consequences of turning away?

Almighty God causes us to taste the tyranny of one another,
that we might learn to see how serious it really is.
 
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Aupmanyav said:
Life is a coincidence from right before the inception. Why did the sperm that resulted in you alone got to fertilize the ovum? There were some 150 million others. :D
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Reply removed at user's own request
 
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Thomas said:
I rather think it is we who require justice of God, than God requires justice of us ...
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Cue multiple bible stories of human beings calling God to order, to be more Just.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Gods message may be correct, but it was transmitted through someone. What is the guarantee that the person did not make a hash of it?
That is why it is necessary that God talk to us directly. Perhaps God said something else.
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Good question. One that has been answered for us to consider. It is a massive topic though, I can only introduce the concept.

God is outside of creation. The creator does not decend into creation in Essence. The Attributes are known to us by the creation of the Holy Spirit, which is given to us in the form of the Human Temple, a chosen person born of this Spirit, in an age when God sees we need guidance. This is the potential we have been gifted, the ability to embrace all those attributes, as we have been created in that image.

It is likened to the Artist (God), the attributes of the artist are seen in the painting (Humanity), but the artist does not become part of the painting, the medium (Holy Spirit) used and the brush (Messenger) put the picture on the canvas.

We have been given the bounty of consciousness, of knowing between right and wrong, love and hate, good and evil, it is inherent in all of us, with the gift of choice.

When we look and embrace these chosen representations of God, we are seeing all we can know of God, when we embrace what they offer, we embrace all knowledge that is available to us, as that Spirit opens doors beyond this Material World and opens all possibility of discovery.

These are the thoughts that give me direction in life, these are life to me.

Regards Tony
 
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Namaste Jesus said:
No one can hear the voice of God if they're not listening or are quick to dismiss it as something else.
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I see that no human, born of the human Spirit, hears the voice of God. I see we can hear what was given to us by the Messengers and in that way, we hear what God offers humanity.

I need to add, we are able to hear the Holy Spirit, if we embrace the Messengers, which is the only voice we can hear, that voice of the Spirit, is given of God.

Regards Tony
 
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RJM said:
But why should there be justice? Why should man expect personal (human) justice of creation?
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Love requires Justice, Love encompasses all virtues, take away one virtue and Love suffers. So without Justice there is no true Love.

Regards Tony
 
muhammad_isa said:
A correct belief [orthodox] teaches that Divine justice after death is true.
Billions of people believe it.
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Do these people really take much notice of it, though?
Lots of religious people get convicted, all th
Tone Bristow-Stagg said:
One has to understand why the Bab wrote the Bayan when he knew his Revelation would.only last 9 years. It was to make a distinction between Islam and the New Message given of God and to prepare the way for the coming of the "One whom God would make Manifest".

The laws were not meant to be practiced, they were more of a help to Baha'u'llah. One such passage that shows the purpose of His revelation was to awaken the people to assist the Promised One to come after Him, rather than to carry out the observances in the Bayan:


Regards Tony
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That is what I call a total 'body-swerve'! 🤣
 
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