There is no justice if atheism is true

[Cino]

Religion also encompasses community and community expectations. Parenting has a huge influence on behaving ethically.

In my country, Christians are no longer a majority (they are the largest religious group). Chaos has so far failed to ensue.

Across the Baltic sea, the Scandinavian countries are largely secular. Likewise, the rule of law and the ethical behavior of the inhabitants are not in danger.

Parenting and community life are not dependent on religion. We have libraries, schools, theaters, sports clubs, art studios, street markets, self-organized community centers (secular), and yes, religious communities. The latter do not hold a monopoly on moral fortitude, as far as I can tell.

How about your community?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Hi Tony
To follow that line: on what basis is man entitled to expect justice? Is it a reasonable expectation? Is it not based on the premise that a just higher power exists? Non-theists reject the premise as unproveable and so the argument fails ...

The argument does not fail. It matters not, if atheism is true, there is no justice. No matter what justice man may implement, there are those that will not face Justice.

Wheras, if the Theist position is correct, and God has revealed the Law, then we one and all face justice upon our departure from this world. There is true justice, as we all face it.

In this regard, the best of mens justice can only reflect the Laws of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I have yet to read an acknowledgement by you that unbelievers are capable of a sense of justice and a motivation to increase the justice in this world.

That is not what I am offering. My reply to RJM is applicable.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The argument does not fail. It matters not, if atheism is true, there is no justice. No matter what justice man may implement, there are those that will not face Justice.

Wheras, if the Theist position is correct, and God has revealed the Law, then we one and all face justice upon our departure from this world. There is true justice, as we all face it.

In this regard, the best of mens justice can only reflect the Laws of God.

Regards Tony

On what do you base your premise that the universe must be just to man in the long run?

 

[badger]

Just what?

It's correct English where I live.
To ask whether an action was 'just', is asking whether that action was 'proper', or 'legal' or 'correct'.
I guess that term is linked to the word 'Justice'?

 

[badger]

The argument does not fail. It matters not, if atheism is true, there is no justice. No matter what justice man may implement, there are those that will not face Justice.

Wheras, if the Theist position is correct, and God has revealed the Law, then we one and all face justice upon our departure from this world. There is true justice, as we all face it.

In this regard, the best of mens justice can only reflect the Laws of God.

Regards Tony

Maybe that's what your religion believes....some kind of reckoning in the afterlife, but as an example, some creeds and churches of Christianity don't agree with you.
Salvation through faith alone....how often have I heard that?
And then there are the 'Pre-dispensation' Christians who believe something about being specially chosen.

But the most dangerous part of 'Religion produces more lawful decent people' is that when they get the idea that others are 'evil' or 'bad' or 'outsiders' that anything can be done to them without displeasing their God.

The Bab almost certainly thought that his God would allow bad things to be done to outsiders.
Spanish Conquistadores didn't treat central American tribes particularly well.
Christians didn't keep treaties and promises to the indigenous tribes.

The very idea of 'We are more righteous than them over there' might look like some kind of psychosis.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The same can be said of Theists, if there is no 'divine' authority then there will be no justice, per se. But, justice in what way? In that, some divine authority has a set of Do's & Do Not's?

Thank you, yes thay supports what was offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

On what do you base your premise that the universe must be just to man in the long run?

The fact there is justice in the human consciousness, means that there is an apex standard for justice.

I have not said the universe has to be just to man, that is what you just offered in your reply. I offered God is the standard of Justice and will judge every human being on their deeds in this life.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Christians didn't keep treaties and promises to the indigenous tribes.

Christians in name only. Wolves in sheep's clothing They were not practicing what Christ said. Read the prayer of St Francis Why do you keep repeating yourself?

The very idea of 'We are more righteous than them over there' might look like some kind of psychosis

This is just repetition. It has been said many times already, and it is not the issue. The issue is the existence of justice in an afterlife

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Maybe that's what your religion believes....some kind of reckoning in the afterlife, but as an example, some creeds and churches of Christianity don't agree with you.
Salvation through faith alone....how often have I heard that?
And then there are the 'Pre-dispensation' Christians who believe something about being specially chosen.

But the most dangerous part of 'Religion produces more lawful decent people' is that when they get the idea that others are 'evil' or 'bad' or 'outsiders' that anything can be done to them without displeasing their God.

The Bab almost certainly thought that his God would allow bad things to be done to outsiders.
Spanish Conquistadores didn't treat central American tribes particularly well.
Christians didn't keep treaties and promises to the indigenous tribes.

The very idea of 'We are more righteous than them over there' might look like some kind of psychosis.

We are all judged by the same standards, no one escapes. How else can Justice be served?

In this world it is supposed to happen, but does not because of human choices, biases and predudices.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The fact there is justice in the human consciousness, means that there is an apex standard for justice.

Why? Human justice is for tribal survival. It does not apply outside the tribe. All tribes go to war under their own gods against other tribes? 'The other' are not considered. However Christ taught the parable of the good Samaritan -- universal consideration for all

no one escapes. How else can Justice be served?

Who says so, though? As an argument for God, it is a self-referential loop. And so it fails?

(edited)

 

[badger]

Christians in name only. Wolves in sheep's clothing They were not practicing what Christ said. Read the prayer of St Francis

No True Scotsman! Any Christian who does bad things can't be a Christian. Good game.
In my opinion much of Christianity does not practice what Jesus said.

The issue is the existence of justice in an afterlife

No. The thread title is 'There is no justice if atheism is true', I've needed to repeat this a few times.
And that proposal is clearly rubbish, imo, and clearly rubbish in the opinion of the OP.

Theists trying to tell that they have an afterlife where judgements are made ....that's their problem. It was a very clever construct by such as Paul and others, and the believers were thus enslaved in to conformity by it.
The Romans, they could threaten and practise a three day death of tortured horror, but Christians who believed in an everlasting horror of agony...I guess that kept many of them in line for their lifetimes, and for those who questioned any of it there were the Inquisition's joys to face.

Non-theists reject this stuff absolutely, and most of us do believe in law, order, regulation and policing......in life.

 

[badger]

We are all judged by the same standards, no one escapes. How else can Justice be served?

In this world it is supposed to happen, but does not because of human choices, biases and predudices.

Regards Tony

I think that the Jehovah's Witnesses agree with that tenet, mostly. Salvation by actions.
But many Christians believe in 'Salvation by faith alone'.

But some of us think that this is all rubbish, Tony..... yet many non-theists do want a safer, fairer, kindlier world here and now. So we support laws and justice wherever possible.
Our bodies are full of cells, and bacteria, etc....... if one of those turns wrong then we kill ourselves from within, but those killing cells are not evil, they are just cells.

 

[RJM]

No True Scotsman! Any Christian who does bad things can't be a Christian. Good game.
In my opinion much of Christianity does not practice what Jesus said.


No. The thread title is 'There is no justice if atheism is true', I've needed to repeat this a few times.
And that proposal is clearly rubbish, imo, and clearly rubbish in the opinion of the OP.

Theists trying to tell that they have an afterlife where judgements are made ....that's their problem. It was a very clever construct by such as Paul and others, and the believers were thus enslaved in to conformity by it.
The Romans, they could threaten and practise a three day death of tortured horror, but Christians who believed in an everlasting horror of agony...I guess that kept many of them in line for their lifetimes, and for those who questioned any of it there were the Inquisition's joys to face.

Non-theists reject this stuff absolutely, and most of us do believe in law, order, regulation and policing......in life.

How many times have you repeated this stuff in this thread? Ok, you don't like Christians. Point taken. Give it a break, man ...

 

[badger]

How many times have you repeated this stuff in this thread? Ok, you don't like Christians. Point taken. Give it a break, man ...

You couldn't be more wrong.
I take food and drink with Christians very often, at least weekly.

Twisting 'Christians got it wrong' in to 'I hate Christians' is just that........ untrue.

 

[RJM]

take food and drink with Christians very often, at least weekly.

You know two JW's. Do you want an award?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Theists trying to tell that they have an afterlife where judgements are made ....that's their problem. It was a very clever construct by such as Paul and others, and the believers were thus enslaved in to conformity by it.

It is a common teaching of Jesus and Muhammad [peace be with them]

Non-theists reject this stuff absolutely, and most of us do believe in law, order, regulation and policing......in life.

I wish I could reject it. It is not a nice thought that a person could be in "a very dark place" for "a very long time" after their death.
However, I believe it to be true. Reality can be harsh. Suffering is a part of reality.

I don't believe in "a god" that literally tortures people.
Like @RJM, I believe that we bring suffering upon ourselves .. individually and collectively.

Nobody is saying that atheists don't believe in law and order .. that is not part of the argument.

 

[rocala]

Well we are now on page 25. So far we have failed to define justice. Secondly, we have failed to reach a consensus on what might exist should atheism not be correct.
Maybe it's time to pause and rethink.

 

[badger]

You know two JW's. Do you want an award?

That wasn't very nice.
This is why I need to repeat stuff.
I say again, I take food and drink with Christians often, certainly each week, and a Catholic also sits at the same table.

 

[badger]

It is a common teaching of Jesus and Muhammad [peace be with them]

I guess that Muhammad taught judgement, a Muslim friend once told me that he wanted to succeed to an Islamic heaven where could laze in beautiful water gardens and be attended to by beautiful young ladies (dark eyed) for his needs, and be able to look over and down in to a hellish place where unbelievers and bad-uns would be writing in eternal agony.

But Jesus...... Christianity says that Jesus taught a judgement after death, but I don't think Jesus did, nor that he believed in it.

I wish I could reject it. It is not a nice thought that a person could be in "a very dark place" for "a very long time" after their death.
However, I believe it to be true. Reality can be harsh. Suffering is a part of reality.

I believe it'll be alright. I was dead for a long time before life, and it was alright. Some of life wasn't so hot, to be honest.

I don't believe in "a god" that literally tortures people.
Like @RJM, I believe that we bring suffering upon ourselves .. individually and collectively.

Click! That's it! Atheism doesn't believe in a god, nor a god that tortures, but most atheists acknowledge that they, themselves, individually, bring suffering upon themselves.

Ergo........ there is little difference between what you wrote there, and what many non-theists would accept.

And so, like many of you theists, atheism does acknowledge suffering as a consequence of failings and wrongdoings.

Nobody is saying that atheists don't believe in law and order .. that is not part of the argument.