Your belief

[juantoo3]

The Catholic church has a lot of problems, including a Pope. It's also a works based religion, which Martin Luther just about lost his life over. I don't know who is or is not a "Christian". I prefer using Christ follower. There could be some Christians in the Catholic Church, but I don't know how they could stay there once they understood the Bible. The Church that Christ brought about was never meant to be an institution, each believer is the Church. Each believer has a personal relationship with God and needs no one to "intercede" for them. We have direct access to God through Jesus.

You answered your own question.

Each believer has a personal relationship with G!d. That goes far beyond religion, every religion.

You cannot answer for me, or any other. I cannot answer for you, or any other. We will all stand before G!d and our hearts will be exposed.

I can plant a seed, but I cannot make it grow. I share with those who wish to hear, and move on from those who don't.

Every major world faith has the same basic moral instructions that line up exceptionally well with Christianity, so what's the point of worrying about how someone else approaches the Divine?

 

[Thinking required]

think you are mistaken. None of the Jews I know think that.

Certainly they would not. I am taking about the Pharisees in Jesus day.
John 10:33 (NASB95): The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

 

[juantoo3]

I have been playing with the gravity issue for years.

So did Einstein, and he didn't figure it out either.

 

[juantoo3]

Don't think that, I desire and like to be challenged. I go back, reread, restudy and so forth. This is a matter of great importance to me. BTW

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it

This site is a good place for exactly that...

 

[Thinking required]

regarding a Messiah claimant

Did Jesus claim to be the Messiah. Jesus did not boast and go around claiming things about Himself, other were doing that. Jesus even tried to keep His miracles quiet. He would tell people after He healed them to say nothing to no one.

 

[juantoo3]

Agreed, but Luther did finally after many years of reading the Bible finally understold that works, keepino the law had nothing to do with Salvatioin. “By Grace you are saved by Faith, not by works so that no one can boast” God wants us to realize that it was all His doing. But genuine Faith will always produce good works. Yes, a Christian has to bear fruit.

And James, the blood brother of Jesus, told us:
"Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Bit of a conundrum if you let it. I go with James on this matter.

 

[Thinking required]

Right .. but if you discard the law, on what basis do you judge what "good works"
actually are?

What were considered “good works“ by Adam, Noah, Abraham, the people of Israel when they were captive for 400 years in Egypt? There was no Law. Does not your heart or you conscience tell you anything?

 

[juantoo3]

I think you are mistaken. None of the Jews I know think that.

which is why I end up in no man's land

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Yes mass determines it, but still does not tell us what makes it. Spin a normal ball and put paint on it, I don't care how big the ball is, the paint will fly off of the mass, not be drawn to it. And it doesn't seem to matter what the mass is made of, the sun is suppose to be all gas, and yet it has gravity. It's OK, the greatest minds in the world can't explain it either. It's a God thing.

... well, it does matter how big the ball is. Experimental physicists can measure the gravitational force of a 1kg body. Gravity is measurable and describable. Physics can analyse how things work, but not answer why it is as it is. But He saw that it was good.

 

[Thinking required]

Truth" is a moving target.

Not so sure I would agree with you here but I think that I get your meaning.

 

[Thinking required]

You mentioned 2+2=4...that is hard science (truth if you wish). Very little of science is hard science.

I thought that was the field of mathematics, not science. Mathematics is stable, Science is not.

 

[juantoo3]

"Truth" is a word, it is a symbol, it is something we humans attach to a concept in order to convey the thought to another human.

The way that can be named is not the actual way.

 

[RJM]

... well, it does matter how big the ball is. Experimental physicists can measure the gravitational force of a 1kg body. Gravity is measurable and describable. Physics can analyse how things work, but not answer why it is as it is. But He saw that it was good.

I agree.

The Law of Gravity describes how the Force of Gravity works in inverse proportion to the distance between two objects.

 

[juantoo3]

I thought that was the field of mathematics, not science. Mathematics is stable, Science is not.

I can go with that, I've been calling science "just another" religion around here for years.

 

[Thinking required]

Philosophy presents us with many variant manners of looking at life as we understand it, each its own variant of truth

Philosophy has very little to do with truth. Trying to understand another human being and why they do and think what they think is just about impossible. We all have scars from what has happened to us in life, those scars make up complicated people. What produced the scars are truths, what happens after is only the individuals imagined truth. Like a father telling their child that they are no good, that’s the truth of the situation, the child believing that becomes real to them, but it does not mean that the child is no good.
Just thinking out loud, I get into trouble when I do that.

 

[Thinking required]

so what's the point of worrying about how someone else approaches the Divine?

So, are you saying that all paths lead to God?

 

[juantoo3]

What were considered “good works“ by Adam, Noah, Abraham, the people of Israel when they were captive for 400 years in Egypt? There was no Law. Does not your heart or you conscience tell you anything?

Are you familiar with Noahide Law? It is Biblical, and worth looking into.

 

[juantoo3]

Certainly they would not. I am taking about the Pharisees in Jesus day.
John 10:33 (NASB95): The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

Aside - there is enough translational confusion just with the KJV, I would encourage either sticking with that, or if you want to look into alternate / supplemental translations then I recommend the Interlinear, the Companion, and the Peshitta, in that order. I don't even bother with any others. And I have a modern copy of the 1611 KJV as well...eye opening all by itself.

 

[juantoo3]

Philosophy has very little to do with truth.

I disagree, philosophy has everything to do with truth.

Trying to understand another human being and why they do and think what they think is just about impossible.

This is psychology, not philosophy

 

[Thinking required]

Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

This is the Catholic Church go to verse for works. The two examples after these verse are about the Faith of Abraham and Rahab, neither had the Law. They simply believed what God said when it comes to Abraham, and as for Rahab, it says that she had heard about what God was doing and believed.

The confusion comes when works are put as the standard. Remember, the thief on the cross next to Jesus only believed (Faith) and did no “works”. The verse I quoted before explains this reasoning, “so that no one can boast” that is to say, I am good enough, no one is “good” enough to please God. Our good works are as filthy rags. Jesus says that “there is no one good”.