Your belief

[Thinking required]

However, few bother. Most Christians dismiss the Old Testament as unimportant and irrelevant, since they are no longer under the Law and don't have to worry about their behavior...I mean, works.

I will sit by the fireside and agree with just about all of this reply. It’s only the last part that rubs me wrong. “Don’t have to worry about their behavior - works”. A Christian’s behavior is extremely important. We are suppose to be a light to this world, that means doing good stuff, works if you like, since the Law does tell us so much about how to live in this world. A Christian that lives in the world and bears no fruit (works if you like) is not a Christian, this is clear in the Scriptures. A true Christian understands the importance of the OT and will keep reading it. It, OT tells us and explains so much about God. The OT and. The NT are linked to a Christian. Do you know when the change really happens in the OT? When Israel wants to have a King to lead them. God gave them Saul and Israel was in for one wild ride after that. It only gets worst until the end of the deportation and then it’s only been silence for the Nation of Israel. But the good news, they do return to a Glorious status.

 

[Thinking required]

However, few bother. Most Christians dismiss the Old Testament as unimportant and irrelevant

This can be said about most people who consider themselves Religious. Most Muslims don’t read the Quran nor do they stop 5 times a day for prayer. Most Christians do not even read the NT. It’s just the way people are, they want to belong as long as it does not interfere with their lifestyle.

 

[Thinking required]

Jesus is saying that we do not achieve salvation by our deeds, but by our faith.
In other words, it is the intention behind our deeds that is important.

First part of this is correct, so why do Muslims have to do more good works than bad works to get into the Garden?
What is your definition of FAITH?

 

[muhammad_isa]

First part of this is correct,.

Yes, we are saved by our faith.
Deeds done without faith, cannot be deeds done to please God, but with some other intention.

..so why do Muslims have to do more good works than bad works to get into the Garden?

A person with faith needs to ACT on that faith.
Hence, we have in the Qur'an "those who believe and do good works, will inherit paradise"..
Why should a believer who couldn't care less, be treated as a believer who strives to please his Lord?

..and we also have "whoever has faith, even as small as a mustard seed, will eventually enter paradise".
In other words they might enter hell first, but eventually come out .. much like the Catholic purgatory.

What is your definition of FAITH?

Much like your definition, I would think. Belief in God, and the Scriptures.

 

[Cino]

But it does not predate God or Jesus, Jesus is all through the Jewish Scriptures. Adam starts the sin and Jesus finishers the sin.

You were marveling at Non-Christians reading the Bible, though. The Bible, a Book which Christians found ready-made and merely added some chapters at the end.

C'mon, be a good sport, admit it is a funny thing to say, let it go, move on.

 

[RJM]

Yes, we are saved by our faith.
Deeds done without faith, cannot be deeds done to please God, but with some other intention.


A person with faith needs to ACT on that faith.
Hence, we have in the Qur'an "those who believe and do good works, will inherit paradise"..
Why should a believer who couldn't care less, be treated as a believer who strives to please his Lord?

..and we also have "whoever has faith, even as small as a mustard seed, will eventually enter paradise".
In other words they might enter hell first, but eventually come out .. much like the Catholic purgatory.


Much like your definition, I would think. Belief in God, and the Scriptures.

It could be the other way, though?

Good deeds done in order to please God are effectively done in order to get to paradise = done for reward? Good deeds done without intention of paradise reward -- but just because its a good thing to do -- seem more sincere?

 

[juantoo3]

I will sit by the fireside and agree with just about all of this reply. It’s only the last part that rubs me wrong. “Don’t have to worry about their behavior - works”. A Christian’s behavior is extremely important. We are suppose to be a light to this world, that means doing good stuff, works if you like, since the Law does tell us so much about how to live in this world. A Christian that lives in the world and bears no fruit (works if you like) is not a Christian, this is clear in the Scriptures. A true Christian understands the importance of the OT and will keep reading it. It, OT tells us and explains so much about God. The OT and. The NT are linked to a Christian. Do you know when the change really happens in the OT? When Israel wants to have a King to lead them. God gave them Saul and Israel was in for one wild ride after that. It only gets worst until the end of the deportation and then it’s only been silence for the Nation of Israel. But the good news, they do return to a Glorious status.

When the word "works" is used both ways, and the distinction is not made, folks who can't be bothered to sort it out, don't.

Consequently we find, frequently, those who think they talk the talk, but fail to live up to it...and worse, point finger and accuse others who don't live up to it. This causes non-Christians to scratch their heads wondering what the deal is, and thinking Christianity as is commonly taught particularly among Protestants as being rather hypocritical as they watch these things unfold.

Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You need to get past your prejudicial assumption that this is a Catholic thing. It came from the words of the blood brother of Jesus, I think it carries a good bit of weight since James grew up with Jesus, probably shared the same bedroom.

 

[juantoo3]

This can be said about most people who consider themselves Religious. Most Muslims don’t read the Quran nor do they stop 5 times a day for prayer. Most Christians do not even read the NT. It’s just the way people are, they want to belong as long as it does not interfere with their lifestyle.

Nice attempt to dodge, we aren't discussing others, we are discussing Christians.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good deeds done in order to please God are effectively done in order to get to paradise = done for reward?

That's OK .. it means that they trust God will keep His promise.
In the same way, a believer will try their best to avoid doing deeds which displease God.
They will get a reward for that, too.

eg. a man considers an act of adultery .. a bad deed .. he avoids it due to fear of God, and it becomes
a reward

Good deeds done without intention of paradise reward -- but just because its a good thing to do -- seem more sincere?

"just because it's good", is subjective.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

What produced the scars are truths, what happens after is only the individuals imagined truth. Like a father telling their child that they are no good, that’s the truth of the situation, the child believing that becomes real to them, but it does not mean that the child is no good.
Just thinking out loud, I get into trouble when I do that.

As you yourself say that it doesn't mean that the child is no good, so it's not a truth but only a humiliating way to scold, and the child may believe it if that's repeated. Formally, it is a false generalisation on the father's side, and it is an unhealthy belief on the other side.
It's just the game authoritarians and autocrats to say that truth is whatever they say. It's not.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

It could be the other way, though?

Good deeds done in order to please God are effectively done in order to get to paradise = done for reward? Good deeds done without intention of paradise reward -- but just because its a good thing to do -- seem more sincere?

If you like to do good, it's good. If you need to be motivated by the promise of paradise, it's ok.
But if you like intriguing and acting unjustly, you would be very disappointed from paradise cause you can't continue like that therein. And as paradise is a place of happiness, it's impossible to enter.

 

[Thinking required]

As you yourself say that it doesn't mean that the child is no good, so it's not a truth but only a humiliating way to scold, and the child may believe it if that's repeated. Formally, it is a false generalisation on the father's side, and it is an unhealthy belief on the other side.
It's just the game authoritarians and autocrats to say that truth is whatever they say. It's not.

Sorry if I did not make this more clear. I was only stating the the act of the father was “truth”, something that actually happened. Not to say it was right or wrong, it was just a fact that something actually happened.

 

[Thinking required]

Nice attempt to dodge, we aren't discussing others, we are discussing Christians

Not sure what I was dodging, I am simply stating a facts about all religious people. Christians were included

 

[juantoo3]

If you like to do good, it's good. If you need to be motivated by the promise of paradise, it's ok.
But if you like intriguing and acting unjustly, you would be very disappointed from paradise cause you can't continue like that therein. And as paradise is a place of happiness, it's impossible to enter.

I would only add if you do good for fame, attention or notoriety, it defeats the purpose. "Look at me! See? I'm helping this poor person! Aren't I a good person?" That way of going about things undermines the good that is done.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I would say a lot more than just those books are important to a Christian.

I would say all of the Old Testament is important to Christians.

However, few bother. Most Christians dismiss the Old Testament as unimportant and irrelevant, since they are no longer under the Law and don't have to worry about their behavior...I mean, works.

That was just rude. And untrue. You say few bother and than most Christians. Which is it. You may be referring to carnal Christians but Spirit filled Christians are a new creation you may not understand that we are very sensitive to the Holy Spirit and His convictions of our sins. We understand that we are not saved by our works but that works are a product of our faith.

We revere the Old Testament as we believe Jesus is in every book. If you care here is a link.

Jesus in every book of the Bible

The Bible is about Jesus. He is spoken of or pictured in every book of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation - See what prophecies, types and titles are given to the Lord Jesus in all the books of the Bible here!

jesusplusnothing.com

 

[Faithfulservant]

I would only add if you do good for fame, attention or notoriety, it defeats the purpose. "Look at me! See? I'm helping this poor person! Aren't I a good person?" That way of going about things undermines the good that is done.

And this is WHY we arent saved by our works so that we can boast about it. We are saved by Faith because that's What Jesus did in the cross. It's what He did not what we did.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

First part of this is correct, so why do Muslims have to do more good works than bad works to get into the Garden?

The Quran clearly promises jannah (final paradise) to those who have dīn (~faith) and do good work, and warns those who have neither, will not enter. It leaves an open range in between.
The warning, in some places, closes with the phrase: ... and God is good in reckoning, which some scholars interpret in the sense you mentioned; It's but also said that God will forgive sins to all who repent before death. There's no significant difference to the Gospel, except that the Quran is directed to beginners, and it contains also situation dependent advise, whereas the Gospel is originally directed to an avant-garde in charge of preparing the Kingdom of God, more general, and much more demanding.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And this is WHY we arent saved by our works so that we can boast about it..

Like I said .. it is all about intention.
However, I would agree that without God's mercy, not one of us would enter paradise.
We are all sinners .. but not equally so.

 

[Thinking required]

The Quran clearly promises jannah (final paradise) to those who have dīn (~faith) and do good work, and warns those who have neither, will not enter. It leaves an open range in between.

It’s interesting how many different stories I have been told over the years about Islam. I know Muslims who would not agree with you. I have been told that all Muslims go to the Garden with rivers running under it. Even if you have done more bad than good, they still get there. It’s much like the Catholic religion, all Catholic get to heaven because they belong to the church and a Priest will forgive them at their last rites. Your definition of faith, certainly do not agree with the Jewish or Christian definition of Faith.

 

[juantoo3]

And this is WHY we arent saved by our works so that we can boast about it.

And around and around we go...

It isn't that good works are not to be done, it is that good works need to be done in the correct spirit / motivation / intent. Good for its own sake.