Can you relate?

[RJM]

What I don't understand is that most here seem to have read the Bible and try to make it say what it does not say. It is certainly ok not to believe what it says, but to try to make it say what they want is just twisted.

Bingo.

I don't know about 'most' here but I agree in principle -- they all like to piggy-back on Jesus, but follow their own messengers and masters, cherry-picking and manipulating the New Testament to suit their own drift, imo

 

[Aupmanyav]

Can you cite a passage of the Quran that supports your claim?

Allah abrogated some Ayah. Who knows if he has abrogated or added more after Muhammad's time.
lā ḥawla wa-lā quwwata ʾillā bi-llāhi (All change and power is with Allah)

"With few exceptions, Islamic revelations do not state which Quranic verses or hadith have been abrogated, and Muslim exegetes and jurists have disagreed over which and how many hadith and verses of the Quran are recognized as abrogated, with estimates varying from less than ten to over 500."

Naskh (tafsir) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aupmanyav]

Bingo.

-- they all like to piggy-back on Jesus, but follow their own messengers and masters cherry-picking and manipulating the New Testament to suit their own drift, imo

Like the Christians piggy-back on Moses.

 

[RJM]

Like the Christians piggy-back on Moses.

Do they cherry-pick and manipulate the Old Testament? It's an honest question, Aup?

 

[Craz]

Do they cherry-pick and manipulate the Old Testament? It's an honest question, Aup?

Actually, I know some do.
I have had several occurrences(over several decades) when people find out I am a born Jew, even after I explain that I am an atheist.
I never regarded that as a problem.
When that happens, I show them the Hebrew and answer them with what I think a religious Jew would say.(I was orthodox for a short period).

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Allah abrogated some Ayah. Who knows if he has abrogated or added more after Muhammad's time.
lā ḥawla wa-lā quwwata ʾillā bi-llāhi (All change and power is with Allah)

"With few exceptions, Islamic revelations do not state which Quranic verses or hadith have been abrogated, and Muslim exegetes and jurists have disagreed over which and how many hadith and verses of the Quran are recognized as abrogated, with estimates varying from less than ten to over 500."

Naskh (tafsir) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's a problem that arose when Islamic scholars tried to derive a legal system from the Quran and - to a significant amount - from Hadit. In my opinion, much of those rules are not laws but guidance. The problem with this theology is that it implies that if you walk with God, you have to do exactly this and this and this. There are prescriptions that need to be followed, others that only refer to a particular situation, and some that show only one out of several possibilities.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Bingo.

I don't know about 'most' here but I agree in principle -- they all like to piggy-back on Jesus, but follow their own messengers and masters, cherry-picking and manipulating the New Testament to suit their own drift, imo

Don't all creeds do that, including your own?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Do they cherry-pick and manipulate the Old Testament? It's an honest question, Aup?

An honest answer is that is exactly what Jesus got accused of.

John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

It happens to every Messenger that confirm the spiritual teachings of the previous Revelation/s.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithfulservant]

An honest answer is that is exactly what Jesus got accused of.

John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me

me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

It happens to every Messenger that confirm the spiritual teachings of the previous Revelation/s.

Regards Tony

Have you actually read the Torah? By Jesus saying this He was claiming He was God.

John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

They were ready to stone Him because of what He was claiming was heretical.

 

[RJM]

Don't all creeds do that, including your own?

Do you mean I should remove all of Paul and most of John -- and the death on the cross and the resurrection, and the incarnation and much of the rest of what's left -- to try to make the NT fit your box?

The Quran says that the Torah and the Injeel (New Testament) that the people of the book held in their hands at the time of Muhammad were valid. Nowhere in the Quran does it say these books had been corrupted by the time of Muhammad, and they are the same books today. The letters of Paul and the Johannine writings were already a part of the NT long before Muhammad -- as were the death on the cross and resurrection

An honest answer is that is exactly what Jesus got accused of.

John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

It happens to every Messenger that confirm the spiritual teachings of the previous Revelation/s.

Regards Tony

You can go on scouring the Bible trying to prove that Baha'u'llah is not just on the same level but even greater than Jesus Christ -- the lamb of God and the new Adam, who sacrificed His life on the cross and then rose from the tomb -- the sinless and virgin-born Christ who healed and forgave sin -- who restored sight, and raised the dead and calmed the sea -- but you won't find your messenger in the Bible because Baha'u'llah just isn't there, imo

You have your own books and your own beliefs and that's fine, but the Bible cannot be made to support you. That's the issue. It's a delusion. I know you're happy to forever wrangle scripture but it's not my game and I'm not getting drawn further down that endless rabbit hole

 

[Thinking required]

?????
After all this?
>>???

I have made this comment 3 or 4 times since I have been on this site.

 

[Thinking required]

Your posts indicate you care intensely, that you surely have your version...either that or you are worse at communicating your intent than I.

My version is this, take a good translation of the Bible, open it up and read it. What you read is what I believe, it's just that simple. A "version" is simply that, someone's version or opinion as to what someone thinks some text is saying. Check out anything that I have said and you will find it written clearly on the pages of the Bible. I know that some of you here hate an answer like this, but it is the way it is. No mystic means, no hidden meaning, or anything else. Just plain words making statements on pages. Everyone who is not a Christian reads their bias meaning into the Bible. A lie is a lie is a lie, no matter how many ways you try to twist the texts. My "intent" here has never changed. Finding Truth!

 

[Thinking required]

Like the Christians piggy-back on Moses.

Don't think you know what you are talking about, Could you please explain what you mean by this and how you see Jesus "piggy-backing" Moses. Moses brought the Law to Israel, Jesus brings Grace and Salvation to all mankind.

 

[Thinking required]

John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

You really need to stop ripping scripture out of context to try to make it what your biased opinion is.
Jesus is not confirming what Moses said. He is actually trying to get the Jews to see what is really written in the Scriptures. Jesus said that Moses wrote about His (Jesus') coming. Moses brought the Law, Jesus moved from the Law to Grace and said that the Law could never save anyone.


39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive glory from men;
42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 5:39–47.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Do they cherry-pick and manipulate the Old Testament? It's an honest question, Aup?

If you were to listen to talks by Rabbi Tovia Singer, he would say, oh boy do they ever.

 

[RJM]

If you were to listen to talks by Rabbi Tovia Singer, he would say, oh boy do they ever.

Is he on You Tube? I'll have a look. Can you link a particular talk?

Also not really talking about translation problems, but deliberate quoting out-of-context and disregarding passages that don't suit the drift?

 

[RJM]

Logging out for tonight ...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jesus brings Grace and Salvation to all mankind.

Thanks, I do not need that. Jesus cursed the cities (badly, went overboard).

 

[RJM]

If you were to listen to talks by Rabbi Tovia Singer, he would say, oh boy do they ever.

Interesting individual, but a total Jesus hater, imo.

At least he concedes that the Muslim Isa has nothing to do with the NT Jesus.

He doesn't like that Paul took the message of Christ to all humanity. He doesn't like what happened with the spread of Christianity, so he wants to wind it all back and make out that everybody got it all wrong because of Paul ... yawn

God works in mysterious ways

Rabbi Tovia Singer

For reference

www.interfaith.org

 

[talib-al-kalim]

The one piece that is missing. the Word of God can not be understood with the indwelling Holy Spirit in a person. I know what I will here from that statement, but it's true. All kinds of people read, study and go to school to try to understand the Bible, yet, you have all kinds of people who just will never understand. Like Jesus being "God in the flesh". Every one then just states that Christians are polytheists because they don't know God, they only know something about Him. Like I have said before, it's not anyone's person fault, God has to open the eyes of a person for them to understand. I am not sure as to what I am to learn, I have studied people my entire life. People hardly ever change. And there is nothing "new under the Sun". All of life is contained in the Bible, every answer needed is there, understanding God is there, understanding sin is there, what to do right is there. Nothing is missing.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), 1 Jn 4:2–3.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ro 8:9–11.

26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 14:26.
Who teaches?? The Holy Spirit.

Sorry, Christianity does not work without the Holy Spirit residing in a person.
Anyone who has been Born Again understands this, those who have not be born again will not understand.


3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 3:3–7.

23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), 1 Pe 1:23.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), 1 Pe 1:3–4.

These are not my sayings they are God's Word.

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,
9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,
10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that aby the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
11 “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ac 4:8–12.

I know that Evangelical Christians often say that they were great sinners but then had THE event that made them reborn. That's fine as long as it is true. But what about people (like me) who were not great sinners and had a sudden event that changed their lives, who learnt with growing maturity? If I wanted to join a community like yours, I could state that I had an inspiring event at the age of 19 or 28, to conform that expectation to be "reborn", but this would be a lie.

What I wanted to put into your attention is rather that many Christians (I won't talk about other religions to you), be it e.g. a Catholic who decides to become a monk or a Protestant who decides to study theology, have a strong reason to dedicate their lives to God and to Jesus, whether it be a sudden conversion or a desire that has riped for a long time.