Can you relate?

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

"Ignorance is bliss".

"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the curcumference of darkness surrounding it".



I can relate. And I also want

"a vision of Nature's forces
That bind the world, all its seeds and sources
And innermost life—all this I shall see,
And stop peddling in words that mean nothing to me."

Good morning Cino, my reply was born out of contemplation of your answer, if ignorance is bliss, please cease reading my reply, I write further to others that may read this reply.

This morning in prayer, this OP returned to my thoughts as I recalled what Baha'u'llah offered to us about the suffering of the Messengers, who are the givers of All truth, in many of the revealed Tablets and I always contemplated what He had written and to why He had done so. This OP really reflects why I think Baha'u'llah wrote about this many times.

I ask why the words would mean nothing to people, why would they see it as peddling and not as a cry from the heart, I cry for humanity to embrace its unity?

How would it be possible to get "a vision of Nature's forces That bind the world, all its seeds and sources And innermost life—all this I shall see.." if one shuts themself off from the source/s of all of this knowledge?

In a Prayer revealed by Baha'u'llah, where He is asking God as to where are the signs of His mercy grace, bounty, presence and authority, Baha'u'llah recorded God's response to him, which in part said;

"......Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds...." Bahá’u’lláh, The Fire Tablet. (Edit: YouTube Inserted below)

Imagine that, Given a Message for all humanity, given all knowledge and God replies, you have been created to endure the darkness. "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the curcumference of darkness surrounding it". Baha'u'llah offered this about all the givers of God's Messages.

"Thou hast known how grievously the Prophets of God, His Messengers and Chosen Ones, have been afflicted. Meditate a while on the motive and reason which have been responsible for such a persecution. At no time, in no Dispensation, have the Prophets of God escaped the blasphemy of their enemies, the cruelty of their oppressors, the denunciation of the learned of their age, who appeared in the guise of uprightness and piety. Day and night they passed through such agonies as none can ever measure, except the knowledge of the one true God, exalted be His glory.

Consider this wronged One…. God grant that, with a penetrating vision and radiant heart, thou mayest observe the things that have come to pass and are now happening, and, pondering them in thine heart, mayest recognize that which most men have, in this Day, failed to perceive..."

The OP quote is but a reflection of what we do to God's Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

Good morning Cino, my reply was born out of contemplation of your answer, if ignorance is bliss, please cease reading my reply, I write further to others that may read this reply.

This morning in prayer, this OP returned to my thoughts as I recalled what Baha'u'llah offered to us about the suffering of the Messengers, who are the givers of All truth, in many of the revealed Tablets and I always contemplated what He had written and to why He had done so. This OP really reflects why I think Baha'u'llah wrote about this many times.

I ask why the words would mean nothing to people, why would they see it as peddling and not as a cry from the heart, I cry for humanity to embrace its unity?

Thanks, Tony!

I was in a bit of a childish mood when I wrote that post, and deliberately omitted the sources of my quotes, in imitation of @Thinking required .

The first one, "ignorance is bliss", is a fairly well-known saying. I think it paraphrases a major aspect of the Ecclesiastes quote. I used it ironically, as it usually is. (An unrelated bit of trivia, probably only interesting to aging computer nerds like me, is that there once was a computer language called "bliss", which had an implementation called "ignorance".)

The second one about the circle lit up by knowledge, is attributed to Einstein. Again, I think it captures the sentiment of the Ecclesiastes passage.

The third one, about the vision of Nature's forces, is from Goethe's "Faust". To me, it captures the drive for enlarging said circle, in spite of the fact that the more we know, the more we question.

How would it be possible to get "a vision of Nature's forces That bind the world, all its seeds and sources And innermost life—all this I shall see.." if one shuts themself off from the source/s of all of this knowledge?

A rhetorical question.

I might ask in kind, how would it be possible to get such a vision by looking only at one person's texts, since the universe is so much larger? But that would be a rhetorical question, too.

In a Prayer revealed by Baha'u'llah, where He is asking God as to where are the signs of His mercy grace, bounty, presence and authority, Baha'u'llah recorded God's response to him, which in part said;

"......Thou wert created to bear and endure, O Patience of the worlds...." Bahá’u’lláh, The Fire Tablet. (Edit: YouTube Inserted below)

Imagine that, Given a Message for all humanity, given all knowledge and God replies, you have been created to endure the darkness. "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the curcumference of darkness surrounding it". Baha'u'llah offered this about all the givers of God's Messages.

"Thou hast known how grievously the Prophets of God, His Messengers and Chosen Ones, have been afflicted. Meditate a while on the motive and reason which have been responsible for such a persecution. At no time, in no Dispensation, have the Prophets of God escaped the blasphemy of their enemies, the cruelty of their oppressors, the denunciation of the learned of their age, who appeared in the guise of uprightness and piety. Day and night they passed through such agonies as none can ever measure, except the knowledge of the one true God, exalted be His glory.

Consider this wronged One…. God grant that, with a penetrating vision and radiant heart, thou mayest observe the things that have come to pass and are now happening, and, pondering them in thine heart, mayest recognize that which most men have, in this Day, failed to perceive..."

The OP quote is but a reflection of what we do to God's Messengers.

It just occurred to me that, Hermes, the messenger of the ancient gods, was also known as a trickster, he had among many others aspects the aspect of Dolios, the trickster, the patron of thieves.

To know the light is to know the darkness. This continues to confirm itself to me.

The darkness is convenient to us, sometimes. Our shadow is not visible there. Everything we are but don't want to be, we can stow away in the darkness.

I'm sure Baha'u'llah knew this. Does he talk about it? Is it lost in translation, perhaps?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A rhetorical question.

I might ask in kind, how would it be possible to get such a vision by looking only at one person's texts, since the universe is so much larger? But that would be a rhetorical question, too.

That is a good question.

The way I see it, it is not a person's text that we are reading, it is God's Eternal Truth we are reading. The Message is not just for one people, it is for all humanity.

I see, an understanding I have gained through my study of the Baha'i Writings, that this Word is reflected across all creation, we are not the only planet and creatures that are guided by this word, there are also many other worlds, an unlimited amount of concious creatures that are influenced and guided by that Word.

In each letter, there is a myriad of meanings.

This would be a great topic.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

I see, an understanding I have gained through my study of the Baha'i Writings, that this Word is reflected across all creation, we are not the only planet and creatures that are guided by this word, there are also many other worlds, an unlimited amount of concious creatures that are influenced and guided by that Word.

Baha'u'llah's writings are very specific to humanity. I'm having a hard time imagining how they would speak to elephants, or octopusses, or crows - arguably conscious beings who even share this planet with us. Alien species on other planets would likely be even more alien to us than birds or cephalopods, I imagine.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Baha'u'llah's writings are very specific to humanity. I'm having a hard time imagining how they would speak to elephants, or octopusses, or crows - arguably conscious beings who even share this planet with us. Alien species on other planets would likely be even more alien to us than birds or cephalopods, I imagine.

I am offering it in the light that a conscious being is given rational thought, I am not being inclusive of the animals in this matrix, yet they too are sustained by the Word, as it is a creative force.

There are 5 levels of spirit that reflect the Word. The Human Spirit, which is capable of rational conscious thoughts, is only the 3rd level of Spirit. The Spirit of Faith is what enables us to rise above the animal Spirit and connect to the Holy Spirit, to become One with all creation.

Jesus offered this in the Bible as being Born Again. Other Faiths have come to know this in different ways. This is the age of discovery, where all our divergent thoughts find our common foundation.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

I am offering it in the light that a conscious being is given rational thought, I am not being inclusive of the animals in this matrix, yet they too are sustained by the Word, as it is a creative force.

Crows can recognize themselves in a mirror, which implies rational cognition. Octopuses too, if I remember correctly, and in any case, they can solve puzzles that require rational planning.

Elephants may or may not be able to perform tasks that require rational cognition, but I seem to remember that they do.

These are real beings living here now, and to them, Baha'u'llah's message already does not seem to be addressed.

But I think I've made my point regarding hypothetical space aliens probably not being addressees of the Baha'i message, if not even crows and octopuses are, so I'll stop dwelling on it.

 

[wil]

we are not the only planet and creatures that are guided by this word, there are also many other worlds

Where is this extrapolated from?

You think there are bahai teachings and believers, word for word in the language of other planets?

Would that not mean there are also 9 other religions that precluded the bahai writings? That every planet with sentient beings also had a Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Krishna etc?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Where is this extrapolated from?

You think there are bahai teachings and believers, word for word in the language of other planets?

Would that not mean there are also 9 other religions that precluded the bahai writings? That every planet with sentient beings also had a Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, Krishna etc?

My understanding is that the "Word" is not confined to Names. The "Word" is the source of all the Names of God, the Holy Spirit which all creation eminates from.

So Just as the One God is seen through all the Messengers given on this planet over time, I do no see the Message is limited to this planet, there are other planets, other creatures (with rational thought) all who would be guided by God in their own realities.

I love this subject, but mainly have to remain silent. There is an amazing Tablet by Abdul'baha which a comprehensive explanation of how creation came into being.

I will supply the link to the "Tablet of the Universe", as this feeds a lot of my thoughts about the extent and influence of the Holy Spirit.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

It opens like this (Provisional translation, so not final translation)

"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds......"

My vision of the size of creation is from this same Tablet. Just imagine that all we currently know of creation, or can know, is but in one lamp and ponder this Ancient tradition. This quote, to me also answers your question. (Note that the "Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number", are the Messengers of God who are all One in the Creative Holy Spirit, mentioned at the start)

"..... Know then that the all-embracing framework that governs existence includes within its compass every existent being - particular or universal - whether outwardly or inwardly, secretly or openly. Just as particulars are infinite in number, so also universals, on the material plane, and the great realities of the universe are without number and beyond computation. The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils...."

Now that is mind blowing, beyond our comprehensive capacity. One hundred thousand thousand more lamps and we are but aware of Just a glimer of light within One lamp.

Always happy to discuss.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Crows can recognize themselves in a mirror, which implies rational cognition. Octopuses too, if I remember correctly, and in any case, they can solve puzzles that require rational planning.

Elephants may or may not be able to perform tasks that require rational cognition, but I seem to remember that they do.

These are real beings living here now, and to them, Baha'u'llah's message already does not seem to be addressed.

But I think I've made my point regarding hypothetical space aliens probably not being addressees of the Baha'i message, if not even crows and octopuses are, so I'll stop dwelling on it.

All the best Cino. Your replies are not what I am saying. The "Word" is not confined to Names or to any individual attributes. My reply to Wil is a larger answer.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

All the best Cino. Your replies are not what I am saying.

I noticed. It's a pattern in our exchanges here. Thanks for your replies, anyway.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I noticed. It's a pattern in our exchanges here. Thanks for your replies, anyway.

I have a bad habit of offering replies from my mindset, which others may not yet even considered. One could say, I am a very bad listener.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Now that is mind blowing, beyond our comprehensive capacity.

Just a point here in your defence, Tony ... it's not, really. as much the same has been said by philosophers without recourse to divine revelation.

This is whether believers such as ourselves can slip into hyperbole with religious 'over-reach' ... it may blow your mind, but other minds have been there, said that ... we need be careful what we lay claim to.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Just a point here in your defence, Tony ... it's not, really. as much the same has been said by philosophers without recourse to divine revelation.

This is whether believers such as ourselves can slip into hyperbole with religious 'over-reach' ... it may blow your mind, but other minds have been there, said that ... we need be careful what we lay claim to.

Thank you Thomas. I understand what you are offering. I would offer all philosophical thought is generated by the Word that Jesus gave us. All men's capacity of knowledge is contained within the Word of God, even if they have not acknowledged the God given Message. (I have supporting scriptural passages from Baha'i Writings)

I know you see otherwise about Baha'u'llah, but he mentions the Illusions made in past Holy books on the topic of the celestial spheres, to which would have sparked the philosophical interest. There is so much we do not know, but so much more has been made known, so I would offer I have not overreached, in my current frame of reference. To others, who have not embraced those frames of references, indeed yes, they will react to what was offered in such a way.

"Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the nature of the celestial spheres. To comprehend their nature, it would be necessary to inquire into the meaning of the allusions that have been made in the Books of old to the celestial spheres and the heavens, and to discover the character of their relationship to this physical world, and the influence which they exert upon it. Every heart is filled with wonder at so bewildering a theme, and every mind is perplexed by its mystery. God, alone, can fathom its import…. Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 162-163.

"Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God's creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing knowledge, can reckon". - Bahá’u’lláh, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 80

The above two quotes are quote are indeed mind blowing, consider these were written in the mid to late 1800's.

I noticed on the news yesterday that a whistle blower in America is confirming that craft and creatures from other planets have visited earth and that America has that evidence in its possession.

What was revealed by Baha'u'llah will become manifest, just as what Jesus offered did become manifested.

All the best Thomas, it would be great to explore the topic, yet to do that, it does require one to consider what has been offered in the Baha'i Writings.

Life - other planets | Bahá’í Quotes

bahaiquotes.com

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

Now that is mind blowing, beyond our comprehensive capacity. One hundred thousand thousand more lamps and we are but aware of Just a glimer of light within One lamp.

Always happy to discuss.

In mathematics, you can find this thought. I remember when I first followed - mentally - the sequence of 1, 2, 4, 8... doubling the last number, after being told a story about a king and a chess boatd and grains of rice... They get large quickly, these numbers.

Later, I learnd about different cardinalities of infinite sets: there are different "sizes" of infinity, for example, some infinite sets can, in principle, be numbered, they have a first, a second etc element - while some other sets are more "dense", no matter how you number them, there are always ements between two given ones which you can't even "reach" by enumerating them. That blew my mind at the time.

I like the sense of vastness which such contemplations give access to. The Buddhist meditation manuals have names for several different modes of having one's mind blown: "infinite space", "infinite consciousness", "nothing-ness", "neither perception nor non-perception"... the qabbalah has the "negative veils" called "endless", "endless light", and "nothing". There is a Christian mystical book about "the cloud of unknowing"...

Mind-blowing states of consciousness are amazing, and compelling, aren't they?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Mind-blowing states of consciousness are amazing, and compelling, aren't they?

Yes very much so. A great bounty.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute

How would you define 'life'? I do believe that life is what animates the form, and so life probably exists all around us, but is invisible to our limited natural animal senses. So I believe there probably is life on many worlds, but just not the carbon based life forms we could validate.

I noticed on the news yesterday that a whistle blower in America is confirming that craft and creatures from other planets have visited earth and that America has that evidence in its possession.

Would need to know who this person is? I hope you are not referring to the ridiculous Bob Lazar, lol

Bob Lazar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Would need to know who this person is?

Mr Grush

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How would you define 'life'?

The Baha'i Writings have defined that life.

"... Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres. These living beings do not have states of consciousness like unto those who live on the surface of this globe: the power of adaptation and environment moulds their bodies and states of consciousness, just as our bodies and minds are suited to our planet...."

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

Mind-blowing states of consciousness are amazing, and compelling, aren't they?

I remember watching a physicist on tv explaining, quite matter-of-fact, that the heavy elements of which we are composed are created under certain conditions – in the heart of stars ... he explained the process and then simply said, 'we are made of stardust', or something like that.

I think I'd heard that before – the explanation, not the phrase – but I can remember sitting on the sofa, watching the tv, hearing him saying what he said, and being completely overwhelmed by it ... I'd heard it before, but had not heard it before, if the italics convey the difference ... and in hearing it this time, yes, I was completely blown away.

 

[Thomas]

Thank you Thomas. I understand what you are offering. I would offer all philosophical thought is generated by the Word that Jesus gave us. All men's capacity of knowledge is contained within the Word of God, even if they have not acknowledged the God given Message. (I have supporting scriptural passages from Baha'i Writings)

Yes, He is the Logos, He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

But my point is, not everyone believes that, they have their own explanations which are not deity-dependent, so our beliefs are proof enough for us, but they are not absolute in the sense they are not irrefutable.

So much so that our arguments from authority – our scriptures – are seen as 'circular reasoning' and a logical fallacy ...

The above two quotes are quote are indeed mind blowing, consider these were written in the mid to late 1800's.

OK, but the same thing was said over 2,000 years before, so the claim that for the 1800s doesn't really stand.

And again, Christians make claims from their scriptures, which the Baha'i refutes ... and the Baha'i make claims to 'progressive revelation' which my own understanding of revelation refutes ... so even we cannot agree, let alone expect an atheist to agree with us.