Wild speculation

I met a rancher about 10 years ago who told me that he was breeding red heifers for a group of Jews in Israel who were planning on bringing back sacrifices to the temple. They paid him quite well. I thought he was crazy at first. He's not.



Even the sacred clothing and objects used during sacrifice have been replicated.
 
I met a rancher about 10 years ago who told me that he was breeding red heifers for a group of Jews in Israel who were planning on bringing back sacrifices to the temple. They paid him quite well. I thought he was crazy at first. He's not.



Even the sacred clothing and objects used during sacrifice have been replicated.
I wasn't going there anytime soon, some folks like to make the tinfoil hat comments (in their ignorance). I figured the link to the red heifer sacrifice information was to provide some talking points and reference points.

I run into so many people today squeamish about taking an animal's life for food...aw, the poor little thing. Not to belittle, but these same people appear to have no reservations immediately after swinging into a fast food joint to pick up a bacon double cheeseburger...as if that magically appears. Because "they" don't have to do the killing, they aren't responsible.

Going back a hundred years, not all that long ago, it was not at all unusual, quite normative, for folks to raise and butcher their own. It was a fact of life that brought the immediacy and the reality home. So yes, there is correlation and association between sacrifice and sustenance.

The simple fact, regardless of squeamish constitutions, is that sacrifice was a regular and routine matter of business across all Western cultures two thousand years ago, and for a great deal of time before that. It persisted in Rome, Greece, probably Egypt, Turkey for several hundred years after the Jewish Temple was destroyed. I read yesterday there actually was a modest start to rebuild the Temple a third time, sometime in the 4th century, but that effort was aborted by a major earthquake in the Galilee. I also learned that while Jews were exiled from Israel, they were permitted to return on pilgrimage for certain Holy Days, at least at first.

For the Temple rebuilders...I've known for almost 40 years of the efforts looking forward to the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple and reinstituting the Biblical sacrifice. The ashes of the red heifer are known, "they" know where they are located. The almost 2000 year old ashes are booby trapped, so I hear, so it isn't like just anybody can waltz in and take them. That is how serious the Jewish faith put emphasis on the sacrifice.
 
I think I was responding to your having said "can they be blamed for not questioning it?"
And I would argue yes, because even the average kid questions EVERYTHING. Why do I have to go to bed, why can't I have candy, why is the sky blue, why did my friend stop talking to me, why did grandma have to die.
I wonder what theology would look like if EVERYONE used that same curiosity and gumption to ask WHY?
I wonder what the world would look like ...
 
The source of the ransom theory, the Christus Victor, Penal Substitution etc?
(This page https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/ explains the theories pretty well in a good clear summaries.
But why God or the Devil or anybody else would NEED this and what in the world it could DO FOR HUMANS remains baffling to me.
Well you'd have to get deeper into it – but then don't expect a convenient answer.

Then again, as the author says, it's not understanding theories that saves, it's faith in Jesus.

I don't understand Quantum Physics, the nature of consciousness, etc. There's plenty of physical theories I don't understand. Does not a lack of understanding point to ourselves as much as it does the object not understood?

Curiously, the article misses Recapitulation Theory of according to Irenaeus' reading of St Paul ... it was the first and shaped everything that followed.

(I prefer it because it appeals to my symbolist sensibility)

I find Christianity fascinating, but I don't understand it.
OK. That's what theology is all about ...

I truly was shocked, baffled and disappointed when I found out what Christian theology really was.
Argh ... I can't help it, I gotta ask ... what did you discover?
 
Curiously, the article misses Recapitulation Theory of according to Irenaeus' reading of St Paul ... it was the first and shaped everything that followed.
Yes, I think I have heard of that and completely forgot. And probably never knew what it was.
I just looked up the Recapitulation Theory and it makes far more sense than say the ransom theory or substitution theory (though I have heard explanations of the ransom theory that make some sort of sense

I think where the article uses the Moral Influence theory and the Christus Victor theory - the two of them sound like watered down versions of the Recapitulation theory, now that I've reviewed it.
Interestingly, if you google recapitulation theory without specifying theology, you get a biological theory that seems to be about both life cycle development and evolutionary development.
 
Argh ... I can't help it, I gotta ask ... what did you discover?
I eventually discovered the basic tenets of the faith and it was nothing like I had pieced together from what I picked up around me.

That is, the trinity, the incarnation, the certainty of eternal conscious torment prevented only by a strong belief that Jesus death on the cross will in some unclear fashion rescue you from that unimaginable fate. If and only if you believe it and believe a few other things. That there was no hope of being saved from that fate any other way. And that somehow people go to their fate right after they die. And there's no fix to it once they die. Being a "good person" or "law abiding" or "kind" or "loving" plays no role in your salvation.

But someone's sexual orientation can get in their way of salvation despite anything else.
I was vaguely aware of some of those ideas, not all of them, and was quite firmly told as a child that all those beliefs were wrong.
(the sexual orientation thing wasn't addressed in religious terms that I remember -- my family had the usual biases but without much steam in it)

But in terms of what I was taught theologically by my grandfather and what I had managed to piece together from the world around me and the information sources I had-- the orthodox belief
Was nothing like my grandpa's (admittedly heterox) teachings AND
Nothing like I had put together.
Nothing at all.
 
I can respond to each in turn, if you like, giving some background and comment ... nothing heavy ...

(But not all in one go, nor overnight.)

If you're up for it?
 
I can respond to each in turn, if you like, giving some background and comment ... nothing heavy ...

(But not all in one go, nor overnight.)

If you're up for it?
Sure, anything you want to say.
I could spell out my "headcanon" childhood theology as well.
 
Picking up the thread ...

I came across this in my browsing ...

Becoming a New Creation with the Apostle Paul
And I recommend the Eclectic Orthodox blog of Fr Aidan Kimel.

The below is heavily edited, from the above post which is a review of The Quest for Paul’s Gospel by Douglas Campbell – so the quotes from the book are in blue, the black text is the blog – the grey comments mine.

The New Creation Model

Of the three models discussed in The Quest for Paul’s Gospel[/I], Douglas Campbell advances one in particular as the most helpful lens through which to read the Pauline epistles... since this is my blog article, I hereby dub the third model as the new creation model (NC).

The very being of the sinful believer is taken up into Christ’s on the Cross, crucified, buried, then resurrected in a transformed state, and here free from sin, according to Paul. In a sense, then, a person is absorbed into the Easter events, and transformed through them and by them.

And this is not just an idea, or a mental identification. Paul clearly believes that something quite real has happened; it is irreducibly concrete. The process also takes place in some relation to the Spirit. Indeed, for Paul the presence of the Spirit in the lives of Christians is the main testimony to the reality of the event. When the transformation is complete the Christian exists in a radically new way, in a relationship of filial intimacy with God through the Spirit (cp. Rom. 8.14-17; Gal. 4.1-7).


This is very much how I view the Sacrifice of the Cross ... Irenaeus was the first to offer an explanation of salvation, and he saw it as a recapitulation – the undoing of what was done, Jesus the New Adam, Mary the New Eve – the Cross is the reverse engineering of the Fall – all strongly founded on Paul.

Paul’s ... (“into” and “in” Christ) ... is a metaphor for being or ontology, and its radical transformation. Hence the important thing for Paul is the new set of relationships created in Christ, as well as the new relational capacity humans possess “in” him. Through Christians’ relationships with the Spirit, they now relate, in Christ, to the Father. In short, Christ makes Christians into fully relational beings, that is, into real full persons.
The idea of a 'fully relational beings' and as such 'real full persons' links to the understanding of 'person' as something more than simply a human being. To be fully a person is to be a person-in-relation – to other persons, the cosmos, God.

“In him” they can relate to God and to each other as they ought to. Outside of him, humanity is enslaved to hostile and evil forces that curve people in on themselves, away from God and from others, corrupting and distorting all their relationships.

By the Spirit believers participate in the Son’s obedience, sufferings, death, and resurrection. The divine work of transfiguration has begun.

The Apostle’s theology is pneumatological, for by the Spirit the believer is made a new creation in Jesus Christ. It is participatory, for by the Spirit the believer is united to Christ and thus participates in his Sonship and work of redemption. It is martyrological, for by the Spirit the believer is conformed to the story of Christ’s suffering and death. It is eschatological, for by the Spirit the believer now lives the life of the coming Kingdom.

And at the heart of the salvation bestowed upon the Church is the unconditional and infinite love of God. “The (New Creation) model does not understand salvation to be motivated by anything other than the limitless love of God for humanity,” explains Campbell. “So there is no implacable divine commitment to justice that must be bloodily assuaged, whether on the cross, or on the Last Day. The cross—and the resurrection!—are moments of divine identification and transformation, not punishment.

The individual cannot by an act of will bring himself into new life nor raise himself from the dead. He cannot incorporate himself into Christ and make himself a son of God. He cannot create for himself a paschal mode of existence:

This rebirth into a new way of being and relating is, from start to finish, a gift of God. It comes to people purely out of God’s freedom and grace, so, as I understand Paul, it is completely unconditional..

“Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come” (2 Corinthian 5:17).
 
That is, the trinity ...
Ah ... um ... I have said rather a lot on that. If you want more, be prepared to hear feet walking away and doors slamming shut ... ;)

... the incarnation ...
I'll give you my speculation in a nutshell – that the human is a being with a foot in two worlds, as it were, the spiritual and the material.

It's a common distinction, and many view it is either/or, whereas I tend to a view of and/and ... based on Biblical reasoning.

Take, for example, the miracle of Christ restoring sight to the blind. Some view it as just that – a man was blind, and now he can see.
Some view it as an analogy – we're talking 'spiritual blindness' and Jesus opened his 'inner eye' or what have you.
My take is that the man was born blind, and had his sight restored (as was the cripple healed, the woman with an issue of blood, etc.) All these were physical miracles, but they were not just gratuitous displays of power – that carried a spiritual dimension – but that does not invalidate the physical actuality.

As above, so below – but if a miracle only takes place in the spiritual realm, as it were, it has no effect 'here', although here might incidentally benefit.

I do not hold with the soul trapped, imprisoned, or in some other way 'stuck here', nor to the idea that something that God created is simply a waiting-room or school on the way to somewhere better.

In short, I believe in the world, and our place in the world, in the here-and-now, and that's where our efforts should be contemplated, not in some flight of 'the alone to the alone'.

I do accept the idea that reality is a matter of degree. Ultimately, only God is real. The spiritual domain is, in a sense, more real than the material, and the body is the form of the soul by which the soul is present in the world – without a body, the soul is ineffective here – so I don't see creation as the body kicking a ball against the wall while the soul gets its act together ...

The Incarnation is the actualisation of that Divine Principle, that of 'all-in-all' – that God is Lord of Everything.

... the certainty of eternal conscious torment prevented only by a strong belief that Jesus death on the cross will in some unclear fashion rescue you from that unimaginable fate. If and only if you believe it and believe a few other things. That there was no hope of being saved from that fate any other way. And that somehow people go to their fate right after they die. And there's no fix to it once they die. Being a "good person" or "law abiding" or "kind" or "loving" plays no role in your salvation.
A lot of questions!

I do not believe in an 'eternal hell' because I can't see any virtue of suffering for its own sake, nor the idea that Infinite Love cannot come up with a better solution than that.

(Hell, I speculate, is conditional, not eternal, and might very well be empty – but nevertheless a metaphysical reality – if we are indeed free, that that one ontological freedom is to reject God.)

But someone's sexual orientation can get in their way of salvation despite anything else.
A whole can of worms, and something patriarchal outfits spend far too much time dwelling on ...
 
(Hell, I speculate, is conditional, not eternal, and might very well be empty – but nevertheless a metaphysical reality – if we are indeed free, that that one ontological freedom is to reject God.)
If I may be allowed to speculate?

There is a prison, if the New Testament is to be believed. Tartaros. Where the more powerful fallen angels are chained.

I do believe "evil" in the sense of whatever is unsuitable to be in the presence, will be burned away. I don't think that is eternal, but I don't know how long it takes to try gold in a fire and separate silver from dross. I don't know about the prison...the nature of reality is the tension between poles, so it could be they are required for reality to exist as we know it.
 
All these were physical miracles, but they were not just gratuitous displays of power – that carried a spiritual dimension – but that does not invalidate the physical actuality.

Jesus said to to the cripple, your sins are forgiven. And to show that Jesus had the power to forgive sins, he said to the cripple, get up and walk.

When we are knocking on heaven's door, it will be more beneficial to have our sins forgiven, than to have the ability to walk through on our own two feet. However, God has shown he has the power to do both..
 
I do not believe in an 'eternal hell' because I can't see any virtue of suffering for its own sake, nor the idea that Infinite Love cannot come up with a better solution than that.

(Hell, I speculate, is conditional, not eternal, and might very well be empty – but nevertheless a metaphysical reality – if we are indeed free, that that one ontological freedom is to reject God.)
Intriguing speculations. I don't agree with "eternal hell" either partly for the same reasons, and partly due to the alternative theory of conditional immortality. If one rejects God, or perhaps more reasonably, if one engages in evil actions regardless of one's beliefs, one simply is not granted eternal life. However, the "eternal hell" theory is held to fast by many Christians, and heavily touted by evangelicals. They claim the idea is firmly and unavoidably true to scripture. Not only that, but many fundamentalists seem to positively relish the idea. I believe that the idea of eternal torture itself turns many off of Christianity, turns many into cynicism, turns many off religion altogether.

Those who promote conditional immortality find it to be firmly scriptural as well.
 
Intriguing speculations. I don't agree with "eternal hell" either partly for the same reasons, and partly due to the alternative theory of conditional immortality. If one rejects God, or perhaps more reasonably, if one engages in evil actions regardless of one's beliefs, one simply is not granted eternal life. However, the "eternal hell" theory is held to fast by many Christians, and heavily touted by evangelicals. They claim the idea is firmly and unavoidably true to scripture. Not only that, but many fundamentalists seem to positively relish the idea. I believe that the idea of eternal torture itself turns many off of Christianity, turns many into cynicism, turns many off religion altogether.
What difference does it make? I don't want to be in either one.

Those who promote conditional immortality find it to be firmly scriptural as well.
:) I'm at a loss to recall specific scripture, but that is the impression I got from reading pretty much all of the Bible, I didn't skip much.
 
I am also of the opinion that should the soul finally and irrevocably refuse the Love of God then it 'falls away' and being cut off (by its own act of will) from that which ultimately sustains it ... it ceases to exist.
 
I am also of the opinion that should the soul finally and irrevocably refuse the Love of God then it 'falls away' and being cut off (by its own act of will) from that which ultimately sustains it ... it ceases to exist.
I believe this too: a soul can die
 
.. it ceases to exist.
No, it does not..
I couldn't resist it :)

We do not know for sure, what lies beyond physical death.
Believers in G-d can be certain that there is a life hereafter, but details of
what will happen to each soul is only known by G-d.

I realise that it is your belief that souls will not dwell in hell forever, and I understand
why you might think that i.e. G-d is not a tyrant

However, I prefer to ponder on the meaning of "forever", and see it as "a long, long time" 😖
There are verses in the Gospels, quoting Jesus saying that souls will dwell forever .. in hell or paradise.
 
Back
Top