Wild speculation

[wil]

Don't you accept that sacrifice of material attachments can give any benefits in this present life? The 'peace that passes understanding' -- the freedom from desire that leads to inner peace?

Oh absolutely...but that is me.

Others like going to confessionsal...and then back to the streets...a ferris wheel of sorts.

Others the promise of eternal life is the drive

I don't buy into either of those...but personal sacrifice has its own reward...both before and after Jesus quitting smoking had/has merit.

 

[RJM]

Oh absolutely...but that is me.

Others like going to confessionsal...and then back to the streets...a ferris wheel of sorts.

Others the promise of eternal life is the drive

I don't buy into either of those...but personal sacrifice has its own reward...both before and after Jesus quitting smoking had/has merit.

Sacrifice of material attachments in favour of spiritual peace* is not just a Christian concept, surely?

*In this world

 

[wil]

Being aware doesn't mean the sacrifice isn't taken for granted.

I think the sacrifice (or maybe the reward) is what most Christians focus on

I think it is the promise...the clause in the contract they rely upon most.

 

[Thomas]

Extract, from the Homily on the Pasch

66. When this one came from heaven to earth for the sake of the one who suffers, and had clothed himself with that very one through the womb of a virgin, and having come forth as man, he accepted the sufferings of the sufferer through his body which was capable of suffering. And he destroyed those human sufferings by his spirit which was incapable of dying. He killed death which had put man to death.

67. For this one, who was led away as a lamb, and who was sacrificed as a sheep, by himself delivered us from servitude to the world as from the land of Egypt, and released us from bondage to the devil as from the hand of Pharaoh, and sealed our souls by his own spirit and the members of our bodies by his own blood.

+++

69. This one is the passover of our salvation. This is the one who patiently endured many things in many people: This is the one who was murdered in Abel, and bound as a sacrifice in Isaac, and exiled in Jacob, and sold in Joseph, and exposed in Moses, and sacrificed in the lamb, and hunted down in David, and dishonoured in the prophets.

70. This is the one who became human in a virgin, who was hanged on the tree, who was buried in the earth, who was resurrected from among the dead, and who raised mankind up out of the grave below to the heights of heaven.

71. This is the lamb that was slain. This is the lamb that was silent. This is the one who was born of Mary, that beautiful ewe-lamb. This is the one who was taken from the flock, and was dragged to sacrifice, and was killed in the evening, and was buried at night; the one who was not broken while on the tree, who did not see dissolution while in the earth, who rose up from the dead, and who raised up mankind from the grave below.

+++

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Homily on the Pasch (On the Passover, or Peri Pascha) Melito of Sardis, written c.170)

Introduction:
1. First of all, the Scripture about the Hebrew Exodus has been read and the words of the mystery have been explained as to how the sheep was sacrificed and the people were saved.

2. Therefore, understand this, O beloved: The mystery of the passover is new and old, eternal and temporal, corruptible and incorruptible, mortal and immortal in this fashion:

3. It is old insofar as it concerns the law, but new insofar as it concerns the gospel; temporal insofar as it concerns the type, eternal because of grace; corruptible because of the sacrifice of the sheep, incorruptible because of the life of the Lord; mortal because of his burial in the earth, immortal because of his resurrection from the dead.

4. The law is old, but the gospel is new; the type was for a time, but grace is forever. The sheep was corruptible, but the Lord is incorruptible, who was crushed as a lamb, but who was resurrected as God. For although he was led to sacrifice as a sheep, yet he was not a sheep; and although he was as a lamb without voice, yet indeed he was not a lamb. The one was the model; the other was found to be the finished product.

5. For God replaced the lamb, and a man the sheep; but in the man was Christ, who contains all things.

6. Hence, the sacrifice of the sheep, and the sending of the lamb to slaughter, and the writing of the law – each led to and issued in Christ, for whose sake everything happened in the ancient law, and even more so in the new gospel.

7. For indeed the law issued in the gospel – the old in the new, both coming forth together from Zion and Jerusalem; and the commandment issued in grace, and the type in the finished product, and the lamb in the Son, and the sheep in a man, and the man in God.

8. For the one who was born as Son, and led to slaughter as a lamb, and sacrificed as a sheep, and buried as a man, rose up from the dead as God, since he is by nature both God and man.

9. He is everything: in that he judges he is law, in that he teaches he is gospel, in that he saves he is grace, in that he begets he is Father, in that he is begotten he is Son, in that he suffers he is sheep, in that he is buried he is man, in that he comes to life again he is God.

10. Such is Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever. Amen.

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I see Verse 2 indicates how it is transferred to each Messenger. Verse 3 and 4 is the twofold aspect of God's Revelations. Verse 5 and 6 show how the sacrifice is applicable to all Messengers "Christ" the Annointed Ones. Verse 7 shows how the Messages are renewed based on the old and that the Messenger becomes to be known as the "Self of God". Verse 8 indicates how the Christ, as the Holy Spirit, also was born of man, a human spirit, the Holy Spirit is all we can know of God. Verse 9 shows how Christ is everything to humanity, to us Christ is all we can know of God. Verse 10 is recognition of the Message Jesus gave us as "Christ" an "Annointed One".

I see these passages are applicable to all Messengers who were Annointed Ones, Annointed by God, Verse 8 and 9 is all they are, One with God.

Regards Tony

 

[Cino]

But in order to understand the significance, one must first understand Passover, and the significance of that Holy Day.

Release from bondage, I think?

 

[Cino]

But then, we sacrifice the lives of young black men to keep the penal system going because it supports the economy and we would have to shoulder a greater burden if we didn't.

And we sacrifice the future of the Third World on the altar of our consumer gods.

And we rape the planet for better, smarter tech ... so it's not that far removed, really.

John Zorn and David Chaim Smith have a wonderful record called "The Sacrificial Universe", which echoes these observations, and more.

The vocals are interesting. "The universe is a sacrificial beast, a pregnant beast, full of worlds and souls..."

Not a Christian-Themed work, but I was reminded of it by this thread.

 

[rocala]

Sacrifice of material attachments in favour of spiritual peace* is not just a Christian concept, surely?

Far from it. Buddhist non-attachment is the obvious one but, it is an important concept in Jainism too. There is aparigraha in yoga, and the Tao Te Ching refers to attachment as a cause of suffering. Modern western nature based faiths often emphasise the seasons, and frequently ancestors are venerated. These I think point to non-attachment, even if it is not overtly expressed. All things must pass.

For me, I feel that non-attachment is at the very heart of spirituality.

 

[Cino]

For me, I feel that non-attachment is at the very heart of spirituality.

Another term for this quality, I think, is "surrender".

Or, in a more contemporary tone, "relaxing".

 

[RJM]

For me, I feel that non-attachment is at the very heart of spirituality.

I think so too

 

[juantoo3]

For me, I feel that non-attachment is at the very heart of spirituality.

How can one "love" without attachment?

 

[rocala]

How can one "love" without attachment?

It can be tricky, I don't deny that. I once had a friend, Paul. We both had girlfriends that we loved. I liked to see mine laughing with people, dancing, the normal pursuits of young couples. Paul was a control freak, he also watched his girlfriend, like a hawk. He never got pleasure from what he saw. She would panic if ever a man spoke to her.

When we split up, my ex-girlfriend and I continued to go out sometimes. When Paul was released from prison he had a court order preventing him from going anywhere near his ex. So yes, it can be done without attachment.

Non-attachment is not an event, it is a path. Many attempt it, but there are varying degrees of success.

 

[TheLightWithin]

"While Jesus' sacrifice may be axiomatic, I think most Christians don't give it much thought, and few pulpits put any emphasis. What little emphasis there is, is confined to Easter."

Depends on the church I suppose.
This AM I went to an Anglo-Catholic (Episcopal) church. Today was the feast of the Corpus Christi, so some good long while was spent on ritual and they discussed the theology of the Real Presence, etc. And how early Christians were accused of cannibalism.
What I can say though, is no matter how much I hear and read about the theology, I don't understand about the sacrifice, its necessity or its efficacy.
Try as I might, I guess I simply don't have the ears to hear, eyes to see, heart to understand.
I understand a great many things, or I think I do.
But I don't understand about the sacrifice, to whom the sacrifice was made, and to what effect.

And I still don't understand how wil's not understanding (or possibly mine?) proved/validated your point.

 

[TheLightWithin]

It can be tricky, I don't deny that. I once had a friend, Paul. We both had girlfriends that we loved. I liked to see mine laughing with people, dancing, the normal pursuits of young couples. Paul was a control freak, he also watched his girlfriend, like a hawk. He never got pleasure from what he saw. She would panic if ever a man spoke to her.

When we split up, my ex-girlfriend and I continued to go out sometimes. When Paul was released from prison he had a court order preventing him from going anywhere near his ex. So yes, it can be done without attachment.

Non-attachment is not an event, it is a path. Many attempt it, but there are varying degrees of success.

What you describe is obsession.
Attachment of one form or another is fundamental in human life, the lives of most mammals in fact (birds too maybe)

 

[Cino]

What you describe is obsession.
Attachment of one form or another is fundamental in human life, the lives of most mammals in fact (birds too maybe)

I think we are "confusing the planes" here.

"Attachment" as a technical term in psychology, with "attachment" as a religious term.

One is used in investigating and describing human (mammal, perhaps bird) relationship dynamics.

The other is used in describing a spiritual quality of trying to hold the ephemeral.

Same word, different meaning.

Like "energy". Took me decades to accept that spiritual energy is not equivalent to mechanical work...

 

[TheLightWithin]

John Zorn and David Chaim Smith have a wonderful record called "The Sacrificial Universe", which echoes these observations, and more.

The vocals are interesting. "The universe is a sacrificial beast, a pregnant beast, full of worlds and souls..."

Not a Christian-Themed work, but I was reminded of it by this thread.

Interesting. I looked it up, and found there is an out of print book by David Chaim Smith called The Sacrificial Universe" and I was able to find the artist John Zorn on YouTube, but I will have to dig a little more to locate a record album by both names.

 

[Cino]

Interesting. I looked it up, and found there is an out of print book by David Chaim Smith called The Sacrificial Universe" and I was able to find the artist John Zorn on YouTube, but I will have to dig a little more to locate a record album by both names.

You're right! And the reason is, it's called "The Dream Membrane", not the other title I mentioned earlier.

Sorry for having caused confusion.

 

[rocala]

What you describe is obsession.
Attachment of one form or another is fundamental in human life, the lives of most mammals in fact (birds too maybe)

Quite possibly, and possibly I was obsessed with giving my girlfriend freedom. You will never know. So please don't jump at the obvious.
As I said, it is a path not an event, just go as far as you can. If you don't like it, the opposite is a path too. One where obsession is a milestone on the journey.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I think we are "confusing the planes" here.

"Attachment" as a technical term in psychology, with "attachment" as a religious term.

One is used in investigating and describing human (mammal, perhaps bird) relationship dynamics.

The other is used in describing a spiritual quality of trying to hold the ephemeral.

Same word, different meaning.

Like "energy". Took me decades to accept that spiritual energy is not equivalent to mechanical work...

Quite right, and a good lesson in interpretation in all forms of communication (written, speech, etc) "what did they MEAN by that word"

 

[Thomas]

"While Jesus' sacrifice may be axiomatic, I think most Christians don't give it much thought, and few pulpits put any emphasis. What little emphasis there is, is confined to Easter."

More and more, I understand that generally, when 'most Christians' is said here, it means other than Catholic, Orthodox, etc. I think it means America. I really don't know.

RCs call it the Sacrifice of the Mass. That's what the Liturgy of the Mass is all about. That's what the Eucharist is, its' what He said.

Personally, I don't think we understand it any better now than we did in the first century. So we write screeds about it, and there are theories, going all the way back to Irenaeus, and he going back to Paul.

John's entire Gospel was a kind of 'Don't you get it?'