Love

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I apologize for missing your reply.

Do you have other New Testament passages you believe do predict the coming of those two messengers after Jesus? Always requesting that for the sake of discussion you try to express your own personal views?

My position is as of a Seeker. I have embraced the Message of Baha’u’llah as a foundation of knowledge. As I do no possess knowledge of God that belongs to me, I have to go to the sources of God and try to understand, for my own self. In that process I can share and discuss what I have found.

When Words are given, even in the context of a certain passage, to me it is important to know what that Word portrays. Mansions is such a word, and, most importantly we have to remember it is a translation, so we also have to consider the original language meaning.

Sorry tine is short, but I started to search mansion, this is one link.

Your Mansion in Heaven

The King James Version “mansion” did not mean a palatial home, it simply meant “dwelling place.” When the Master said, “I go to prepare a place for you,” He invoked the imagery of a young man building an addition on to His Father’s home: In my Father's house are many dwelling places."

torahportions.ffoz.org

So one interpretation is many dwelling places and another many rooms.

If you read the link and those ideas (It is not long) my thoughts from them have a picture of each Messenger building a room for their family, (those that accept them).

This is but one thought, after one short search. I see we can spend a lifetime just considering what "Mansions" mean.

In the end the purpose is to bring us together as one family, the rest is just very interesting discussions.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

What does this mean in relation to humans, animals or plants?

From what I currently understand, Love is the emanation of the Holy Spirit, the First cause from which creation becomes a reality.

I have no clear understandings, just pieces I am trying to put together.

It appears that all levels of Spirit must also eminate from Love, we have been told there is 5 levels of Spirit in our reality.

The Vegetable Spirt
The Animal Spirit
The Human Spirit
The Spirit of Faith, and
The Holy Spirit

So all levels of Spirt below the Holy Spirit gain life and existence from the Holy Spirit, which is created of God. (This does not define God though, as God's essence is beyond our knowledge).

So what does it mean? Well to me, from God we come, to God we return. Humans have been given a capacity to know and Love God. Animals and plants have not. It appears we have been created to live in harmony with creation and learn what it is to be selfless, or in other words, learn what it is to truly love.

Regards Tony

 

[Thinking required]

It is false to refuse to read the Bible, but it is evenly false to reject everything else.

Do I just naively reject? That would just be foolish. Can I research, yes. Here is the real problem, Jesus taught that it all ended with Him. That is very clear in scripture. There is no need for anyone after Jesus, especially when all the rest just teach a legalist works religion. That is just Judaism all over again. Jesus put an end to a legalistic system that could not save a person from the wrath of God. It’s even OT teaching. If you compare what Jesus taught, you get something totally different from all these so called messengers. Many here just change what the Bible says to fit their desire to believe some man.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

How do you interpret the 'many mansions' passage as Jesus foretelling the coming of Muhammad?

I don't interpret it as a foretelling of any coming prophet. It says that there is enough space for anyone who follows the Word, and not to be anxious.

 

[Thinking required]

When Words are given, even in the context of a certain passage, to me it is important to know what that Word portrays. Mansions is such a word, and, most importantly we have to remember it is a translation, so we also have to consider the original language meaning.

John 14:2 (WPNT): Mansions (μοναι [monai]). Old word from μενω [menō], to abide, abiding places, in N. T. only here and verse 23. There are many resting-places in the Father’s house (οἰκια [oikia]). Christ’s picture of heaven here is the most precious one that we possess. It is our heavenly home with the Father and with Jesus. If it were not so (εἰ δε μη [ei de mē]). Ellipsis of the verb (Mark 2:21; Rev. 2:5, 16; John 14:11). Here a suppressed condition of the second class (determined as unfulfilled) as the conclusion shows. I would have told you (εἰπον ἀν ὑμιν [eipon an humin]). Regular construction for this apodosis (ἀν [an] and aorist—second active—indicative).

Mansions (μοναὶ). Only here and ver. 23. From μένω to stay or abide. Originally a staying or abiding or delay. Thus Thucydides, of Pausanias: “He settled at Colon in Troas, and was reported to the Ephors to be negotiating with the Barbarians, and to be staying there (τὴν μονὴν ποιούμενος, lit., making a stay) for no good purpose” (1:131). Thence, a staying or abiding-place; an abode. The word mansion has a similar etymology and follows the same course of development, being derived from manere, to remain. Mansio is thus, first, a staying, and then a dwelling-place. A later meaning of both mansio and μονή is a halting-place or station on a journey. Some expositors, as Trench and Westcott, explain the word here according to this later meaning, as indicating the combination of the contrasted notions of progress and repose in the vision of the future.** This is quite untenable. The word means here abodes. Compare Homer’s description of Priam’s palace:

It’s not all that hard to find the meaning of words in the Bible. It’s just not all that complicated! Just get 5 or so translations of the Bible and see how they translate a word. This Greek word is translated; “dwelling places”, “rooms”, ”mansions”, “abiding places”, “resting places”. Rooms is used in most translations. I have a book of 26 translations. It’s always a good idea to look at a few different translations to get a clearer picture of what is being said. There is nothing mystical about what is being said here. Jesus just wants the disciples to know that they have a place in heaven!

 

[Thinking required]

I have to go to the sources of God and try to understand

The only good source for understanding God is from the Jewish Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament. It does not get any clearer than that. After all, the Nation of Israel directly interacted with God.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

The only good source for understanding God is from the Jewish Scriptures, what we call the Old Testament. It does not get any clearer than that. After all, the Nation of Israel directly interacted with God.

We also have many other scriptures and also what God has given in this age, the Revelation of the Father, the Glory of God, the Spirit of Truth to guide us unto all truth.

Thus the quandary we face. Do we embrace the Father that the Son said He would send in Christ's Name, or do we stay with the status quo?

That is the choices we get. All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[Thinking required]

We also have many other scriptures

Actually we don’t, I know that’s not your opinion.

 

[Thinking required]

Do we embrace the Father that the Son said He would send in Christ's Name

Could you please explain is? So the Son sends the Father?

 

[Thinking required]

Son said He would send in Christ's Name

So the Son is not Christ?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So the Son is not Christ?

The Son is a station given to Jesus, with deep spiritual significance. Christ means "Annointed One". Jesus was Christ in the Station of the Son. The Father was yet to come.

God sends all the Christ's "Annointed Ones".

Baha'u'llah wrote to Pope Pius IX and declared unto him these extracts from that Tablet.

"......... The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!.............This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” This is the Word which was preserved behind the veils of grandeur, and which, when the Promise came to pass, shed its radiance from the horizon of the Divine Will with clear tokens......"

Peter is the one that confirms Jesus was "Christ" Annointed by God. Jesus said this was to be the foundation of the Church.

The Trinity eroded the foundations.

Regards Tony

 

[Thinking required]

The Son is a station given to Jesus, with deep spiritual significance. Christ means "Annointed One". Jesus was Christ in the Station of the Son. The Father was yet to come.

I can only shake my head, there is no rebuttal for this non sense. "to believe greatly you must doubt greatly".

 

[Thinking required]

I have embraced the Message of Baha’u’llah as a foundation of knowledge.

You have embraced him as your god. "foundation of knowledge" are you kidding! So it wasn't until the late 1800s that "knowledge" arrived to mankind!

 

[Thinking required]

Peter is the one that confirms Jesus was "Christ" Annointed by God. Jesus said this was to be the foundation of the Church.

You threw the Bible in the trash can a long time ago, since you certainly don't know what it says and don't seem to care.

 

[wil]

You threw the Bible in the trash can a long time ago, since you certainly don't know what it says and don't seem to care.

I would think if one were a follower of Jesus or believer in the Bible one would find many quotes.that would indicate that is not a very.christian response.

If it were to be judged by any standard debate or discussion decorum I would guess it would be deemed out of line.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You have embraced him as your god. "foundation of knowledge" are you kidding! So it wasn't until the late 1800s that "knowledge" arrived to mankind!

It was also not in the year AD1 as well,yet the Bible records the same concepts of all things made new.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Revelation 21:4
“He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Revelation 21:5
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

So, I see all things have been made new, we have to create new selves, rid ourselves of the old.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Could you please explain is? So the Son sends the Father?

I would love to offer thoughts, but given your previous replies, it may not be wise to do so.

But it is an amazing concept, the Messengers may actually send themselves.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The Trinity eroded the foundations.

How has it eroded the foundations?

It is a Quranic thing, based on the statement that 'Jesus is not God' therefore the Trinity is a polytheistic belief in three gods. Explanation from trinitarians about how this is not the case falls on deaf ears as 'illogical' and based on a 'corruption' of the New Testament. But Muslim failure to understand the Christian trinity does not invalidate it.

Trinitarianism is not polytheism, regardless of what the Quran might say. Therefore there is no erosion of the foundations. On the contrary IN SPITE OF ALL ITS FAULTS the Catholic Church has survived all attempts against it by the adversary, just as Christ told Peter: "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt 16:18)

Muslims reject that passage as corrupted, arguing that Jesus did not intend to start a church. Most Muslims believe that Jesus got himself crucified by mistake, in his mission to tweak the Jewish religion -- that the crucifixion was never part of Christ's mission -- that he did not die on the cross, therefore there was no resurrection, but that Allah lifted Jesus back up to heaven where he remains, awaiting the time for his return when he will: "break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it as charitable gifts."
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2476

After this Jesus will die properly and be buried in a grave already prepared for him in Mecca beside that of Muhammad (pbuh).

So the problem is not just with the Trinity, but with the Incarnation, the death on the cross and the resurrection and the meaning of much that Jesus said -- which means having to reject much of the New Testament as 'corrupted' that does not tally with the Quran, including all of Paul and most of John, and essential parts of the synoptics, such as Jesus's promise to Peter above.

Muslims will then often extract out of context phrases from these same 'corrupted' passages, to support their Quranic view of Jesus.

Christians will never accept the authority of the Quran over their own scriptures. Therefore they will not accept any Baha'i ideology rooted in the Quranic view of Jesus, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Christians will never accept the authority of the Quran over their own scriptures. Therefore they will not accept any Baha'i ideology rooted in the Quranic view of Jesus, imo

I see them all as One path to the same truths. It is just a shift in our frame of reference and we can embrace all the Messengers in the Light that is Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

I see them all as One path to the same truths. It is just a shift in our frame of reference and we can embrace all the Messengers in the Light that is Christ.

Clearly you do, but it essentially promotes the Quran non-resurrected Christ over the New Testament Jesus, therefore Christians do not and will not see things the same way? It's easy to see the problem, where in order to see Baha'u'llah as the only true messenger for the next 1000 years, others have to throw out their own religions?

Never mind @Tony Bristow-Stagg this discussion just goes around and around in a circle from this point, imo

(Logging out on way to work now )