Love

[talib-al-kalim]

This should be in a Baha'i thread, not here. Way off topic.

We were getting off+topic with respect to the original subject of this thread, as it happens quite often. But Belief and Spirituality should be open to any religion, including Baha'i

 

[RJM]

The Quran confirms the resurrection of Jesus. It doesn't mention that he appeared to his disciples thereafter, but this can be read in the Gospel accounts, and it is not denied in the Quran.

Jesus died on the cross? Or he survived and was resuscitated?

Which ones?

Uh . . .

Without listening to this two hour David Wood debate just for now @Ahanu, the general ideology, at least amongst the majority of English Muslims and You Tubers, is that Christ did not actually die on the cross. The substitution or swoon theories are popular -- that Jesus only 'appeared' to die. Just to clarify, are you accepting the death on the cross and resurrection of the Christ, prior to His ascension?

we can discuss the wisdom found in all scriptures.

Rejecting the parts that do not agree with the Baha'i view, while cherry-picking and manipulating the rest?

 

[RJM]

225 words:

“Followers of the Gospel,” Bahá’u’lláh addressing the whole of Christendom exclaims, “behold the gates of heaven are flung open. He that had ascended unto it is now come. Give ear to His voice calling aloud over land and sea, announcing to all mankind the advent of this Revelation—a Revelation through the agency of which the Tongue of Grandeur is now proclaiming: ‘Lo, the sacred Pledge hath been fulfilled, for He, the Promised One, is come!’ ” “The voice of the Son of Man is calling aloud from the sacred vale: ‘Here am I, here am I, O God my God!’ … whilst from the Burning Bush breaketh forth the cry: ‘Lo, the Desire of the world is made manifest in His transcendent glory!’ The Father hath come. That which ye were promised in the Kingdom of God is fulfilled. This is the Word which the Son veiled when He said to those around Him that at that time they could not bear it… Verily the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth… He is the One Who glorified the Son and exalted His Cause…” “The Comforter Whose advent all the scriptures have promised is now come that He may reveal unto you all knowledge and wisdom. Seek Him over the entire surface of the earth, haply ye may find Him.”

32 words:

Baha'u'llah addressing Christians says: "Christ has returned, listen to him saying I have returned as the Father who spoke from the burning bush, which the Son foretold -- revealed by the Holy Spirit."

Better?

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Jesus died on the cross? Or he survived and was resuscitated?

Without listening to this two hour David Wood debate just for now @Ahanu, the general ideology, at least amongst the majority of English Muslims and You Tubers, is that Christ did not actually die on the cross. The substitution or swoon theories are popular -- that Jesus only 'appeared' to die. Just to clarify, are you accepting the death on the cross and resurrection of the Christ, prior to His ascension?

Rejecting the parts that do not agree with the Baha'i view, while cherry-picking and manipulating the rest?

It's true that the replacement theory is still very wide spread. It was written in the first Tafsir (Quran exegesis) book and only few scholars dare contradict it.
I have come to the same conclusion as Khalil Andani without knowing his work (even posted it here), and I think it has the better reason.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Rejecting the parts that do not agree with the Baha'i view, while cherry-picking and manipulating the rest?


Baha'u'llah addressing Christians says: "Christ has returned, listen to him saying I have returned as the Father who spoke from the burning bush, which the Son foretold -- revealed by the Holy Spirit."

Better?

In the context of the OP, love does not neglect the Word of God, every word and sentence has meaning. It is not about manipulation, it is about understanding, finding True Love.

By paraphrasing, we loose a great deal of understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

We were getting off+topic with respect to the original subject of this thread, as it happens quite often. But Belief and Spirituality should be open to any religion, including Baha'i

In a way it supports the OP, as it is really what Love is all about, exploring the Word of God, in no matter what direction it takes us. What greater expression of Love than sharing, with joy and happiness, the Word of God with all those that likewise share, apart from living that Word?

The quandary for us is not turning it all into pointless, unfruitful debate, where each of us is then in error.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Scripture is what is inspired by God, not men.

That is why I choose ro embrace all of God's Messengers, with Love, with the utmost humility, with great Joy, with the knowledge that humanity is one human race, with the knowledge that we are all equal and all deserve justice and the basic needs of life, that women and men are equal, that all races are the flowers of one Garden.

So I will name a few that I see have Given the inspired "Word of God", who's Words were inspired by God as they are the 'Christ', (Annointed Ones).

Adam Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.(To name a few)

Hopefully we can share the Love one has for Christ and not diminish that Love via argument.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Jesus died on the cross? Or he survived and was resuscitated?

Both. Yet when we consider the resurrection, we must also be mindful of what Jesus Christ offered about the flesh. (I am sure you know those passages)

Another important thought is that of who Jesus was and Peter answered that question.

Peter Confirmed that Jesus was an Annointed One. Thus that Jesus was the Holy Spirit, more than Human, pre-existing.

In the context of the OP, Jesus asks of us, who are annointed with the human spirit, a soul given at birth, to acknowledge and Love Jesus Christ to enable us to be born again, born from the human spirit into the Holy Spirit. No one takes the flesh. Remember Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, but we can choose to pick up the cross and be alive in the Holy Spirit, where death does no overtake us.

Regards Tony

 

[Ahanu]

Without listening to this two hour David Wood debate just for now @Ahanu, the general ideology, at least amongst the majority of English Muslims and You Tubers, is that Christ did not actually die on the cross. The substitution or swoon theories are popular -- that Jesus only 'appeared' to die. Just to clarify, are you accepting the death on the cross and resurrection of the Christ, prior to His ascension?

It's all a discussion for another thread.

 

[Thinking required]

Which ones?

4:157,158

 

[Thinking required]

That is why I choose ro embrace all of God's Messengers, with Love, with the utmost humility, with great Joy,

Too bad that this is not true. You screw up the passages of the Bible in Royal fashion. List to Jesus not your Baha.

 

[Thinking required]

So I will name a few that I see have Given the inspired "Word of God", who's Words were inspired by God as they are the 'Christ', (Annointed Ones)

You live in a dream land, these people, other and Jesus all contradict each other. They all use the Bible to some extent to try to validate themselves as some sort of prophet of God.

 

[Thinking required]

Hopefully we can share the Love one has for Christ and not diminish that Love via argument.

Sharing our distorted love is easy, it's getting to Heaven that is impossible.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 19:23–26.

It is God who saves who He desires to save, nothing to do with works or how good a person is. I am sure that you will have your own spiritual interpretation of this, wait, you have no original ideas.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is God who saves who He desires to save, nothing to do with works or how good a person is..

Indeed, I agree that it is G-d who chooses to bless whomsoever He wills.
..but suggesting there is no correlation between faith and good works is disingenuous.

I recall that in hadith, the prophet Muhammad told a disciple that he would be going to paradise.
..so some people suggest that it doesn't matter whether the man prays or fasts etc.
As I understand it, it does not mean that .. it means that His love for G-d is so great that that is not
what he will do.

 

[Thinking required]

Indeed, I agree that it is G-d who chooses to bless whomsoever He wills.

Bless? That is Muhammad thinking. Those whom God chooses and loves are disciplined and will endure hardships. No one who is a child of God will not be disciplined.

James 1
2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces cendurance.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jas 1:2–3.

 

[RJM]

Both. Yet when we consider the resurrection, we must also be mindful of what Jesus Christ offered about the flesh. (I am sure you know those passages)

What tosh, Tony

By paraphrasing, we loose a great deal of understanding.

I offer that without all the excess verbal gumph, we see the emperor is naked
Regards RJ

It's all a discussion for another thread.

It's the whole issue really, imo*
@Ahanu I watched the whole debate, thank you. I agree

*The resurrection is the heart of it

 

[Thinking required]

..but suggesting there is no correlation between faith and good works is disingenuous.

Faith is Faith, good works come out of Faith because of pour love for God, it has nothing to do with being good enough for God. "There is none good, no not one" Jesus; "why do you call me good, there is not one good except God." "All of our good works are as filthy rags" Islam is a works based religion, yes, the Quran talks about Faith, but conditions Faith with works. It's all there is your Quran. Look up how many times the word "obey" is used in the Quran.

The reason Christians will keep at this thought is so that no one can claim that they have been good enough for God. Your little angel and devil fighting it out does not work. No one will stand before God and declare how good they were.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Eph 2:8–10.

 

[Thinking required]

Muhammad told a disciple that he would be going to paradise.

Sorry, only God can state that. Muhammad was not god, he was only a man. Jesus, could say this as He could forgive sins. God. Not a "partner". Speaking of partners, the Quran makes it clear that Muhammad is a "partner" to Allah. Sura 48:9

 

[muhammad_isa]

Faith is Faith, good works come out of Faith because of pour love for God, it has nothing to do with being good enough for God. "There is none good, no not one" Jesus; "why do you call me good, there is not one good except God."

I know .. nobody can enter paradise/heaven without G-d's mercy.
We all fall short.

Islam is a works based religion, yes, the Quran talks about Faith, but conditions Faith with works..

You misunderstand .. works are useless without faith.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sorry, only God can state that. Muhammad was not god, he was only a man. Jesus, could say this as He could forgive sins.

Don't be daft

What do you think a prophet is?
A prophet is a "son of God", and they get the info from "the Father" i.e. G-d
There are many prophets in the OT who told of future events.