Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

That's essentially Paul's interpretation.
Yep
Why should God need the sacrifice of His messenger to be reconciled ?
Of his only Son, the new Adam, to end all blood sacrifice. God's own son, in place of the son of Abraham. It's so much greater. They just won't ever get it. They need to trivialize Jesus to justify their own religions, imo.

Yet they all need to piggyback on Jesus to justify their derivative religions.
Same ole'
Matt 21:33-39

(edited)
 
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Yep

Of his only Son, the new Adam, to end all blood sacrifice. God's own son, in place of the son of Abraham. It's so much greater. They just won't ever get it. They need to trivialize Jesus to justify their own religions, imo.

Yet they all need to piggyback on Jesus to justify their derivative religions.
Same ole'
Matt 21:33-39

(edited)
I get it though.. because if they accepted it then everything they believed would be a lie. That's the fight . They aren't secure in their faith. How dare anyone not accept their prophets or messengers! At the expense of Jesus? I think not. . I'm not bothered by their prophets and messengers because I am secure in my faith.

At the present I cannot recall any of these same people come at other religions beliefs like they do Christianity. I never see the Bahai or Muslims come after each other's beliefs.. why is that?? It's like a some silent agreement to tear down Christian beliefs. Does my God offend them? Does my faith offend them? The question needs to be asked.
 
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I get it though.. because if they accepted it then everything they believed would be a lie. That's the fight . They aren't secure in their faith. How dare anyone not accept their prophets or messengers! At the expense of Jesus? I think not. . I'm not bothered by their prophets and messengers because I am secure in my faith.

At the present I cannot recall any of these same people come at other religions beliefs like they do Christianity. I never see the Bahai or Muslims come after each other's beliefs.. why is that?? It's like a some silent agreement to tear down Christian beliefs. Does my God offend them? Does my faith offend them? The question needs to be asked.


They all need to borrow the parts they want of Jesus.

Keep doing what you do.
It matters, imo
 
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Yep

Of his only Son, the new Adam, to end all blood sacrifice. God's own son, in place of the son of Abraham. It's so much greater. They just won't ever get it. They need to trivialize Jesus to justify their own religions, imo.

Yet they all need to piggyback on Jesus to justify their derivative religions.
Same ole'
Matt 21:33-39

(edited)
I've always had a tough time understanding the role of sacrifice. It made little sense to me.
I subscribed to a course that talked about "why Jesus had to die" and while it was interesting I don't have any "takeaway" from it.
This little item filled in some missing pieces for me -- in the form of cultural context that clarified:
 
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I've always had a tough time understanding the role of sacrifice. It made little sense to me.
I subscribed to a course that talked about "why Jesus had to die" and while it was interesting I don't have any "takeaway" from it.
This little item filled in some missing pieces for me -- in the form of cultural context that clarified:

Sacrifice is giving everything to God and letting God take over completely. A valuable animal from the herd was killed and burned to ash. It was not about the blood or the killing but about giving to God. Abraham was willing to give up even his own most beloved son to God. But sacrifice became corrupted to mean the blood on the altar.

In Jesus Christ God sacrifices his own Son to end all blood sacrifice.

The mystery of Christ is infinitely deep.

But of course there is no actual Father, no actual Son. They are human words to describe a relationship between eternal Spirit and changing nature. Spirit weaves nature. The greater house of Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates the room (dimension) of nature, that is bounded by walls of time and space and ends in death. There are many other dimensions within the house of spirit -- perhaps infinite other dimensions -- beside our present dimension of nature.

My Father's house has many mansions.

Perhaps?
IMO

This thread:
 
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I never see the Bahai or Muslims come after each other's beliefs..
This thread with recent entries goes into some detail about the active persecution of Bahai by Muslims, or at least by the Iranian Government.
I don't think it says as much about the intricacy and ferocity of their doctrinal disputes. Only that Bahai are seen as apostate by Islam. They are denied freedom and within the long persecution history there has been jailing, executions, exile, marginalization, disenfranchisement etc.

There are some pretty significant splits within Islam, too, which also lead to fights and abuse. The divisions I think are based in doctrinal disputes, so definitely going after each other's beliefs within Islam, how to interpret passages of the Koran and how people should live, etc, but I am afraid I don't know much about them other than their existence and their severity.
Does my God offend them?
Probably not, see below
Does my faith offend them?
In simple terms, the teachings might. Or some evangelists have.

In long winded terms, see below.

In my experience talking to I don't know how many people over the years and decades, and during the same stretch of time observing numerous people react to street evangelism, and reading I don't know how many blogs: Many people are offended by many things about many religions. Many people ignore many things about many religions. (Including their own) The most consistent thing to pop up (and something I also find troubling and doubtful) as a "worst offender" is the teaching in most branches of Christianity and - many? branches of Islam, that anyone who is NOT a believer of that faith will have an afterlife and go to eternal conscious torment in some kind of hellfire. Or at the very least, many people BELIEVE that most prominent branches of Christianity and Islam teach this doctrine for nonbelievers/infidels.

It's not a surprise or secret why people would be offended. ("How dare those evangelists who don't know me say such rubbish to me!") And if they thought it was true they might feel God offended them, sure, by inventing hell and having such a policy... but that's only rarely where it goes in my observation.
Those who take what they hear to heart and ponder it and consider it are troubled, anyway.
Many brush it off with a scowl or outright ignore these teachings as only absurd.

Some who are both rattled and confused by evangelism eventually defy the offensive teachings by examining scripture themselves and finding support limited or wanting (for the afterlife doctrine or any number of teachings evangelists try to sell them) and start their own denominations that present, say, conditional immortality. (In Christianity anyway. I know less about the organizational or doctrinal divisions in Islam)
Those dissenting denominations, like Christadelphians, SDAs, Armstrong variants, JWs etc, or spinoffs like Mormons, are generally fundamentalist and hardliners in their own way, and also offend many, not the least of which are the mainstream Christian followers they defy.

Jews are often not subtle in expressing their unhappiness with Christian (or Mormon) evangelism--both its content and its energetic persistence. As I currently understand it, in the view of many Jews, it is not God who offended them at all, but the Christian or Mormon evangelism and the message they believe to be inapplicable to them at best, outright wrong on an average day, and blatant apostasy at worst.
They are no more delighted with the message of Islam AFAIK.

Closer to our recent debates on the forum: I don't know the overall position that other religions such as Bahai, or Rasti, or anything else in the Abrahamic family take towards the teachings of Christianity (or Islam) nor their idea of what an interfaith relationship with Christians (or Muslims) should look like. I know even less about what various Eastern faiths would say their official "take" on Christianity or other Abrahamic faiths would be. It doesn't come as any surprise really, though, at some "family squabbling" amongst members of the various Abrahamic sects. It's not about thinking the same God they all officially worship is offending them. It's more about sibling rivalry. I am not sure how many Abrahamic faiths there are, 7 or 8? maybe more? What a family! What an opportunity to say look at me, I'm the best, you stink, etc. Traditional Christianity and Islam receiving the hardest pokes from younger sibs because of the perceived hardness of their afterlife doctrine and their claims of exclusivity. (i.e believe it or else, or at least Christianity and Islam are often perceived as saying, believe us or else)

And of course, scientific minded rationalist-materialist non believers in at least in much of the West seem to appear to reserve their defiance for Christianity due to its dominance/pervasiveness/familiarity. Their main objections are to the aboslute truth claims. It's not that God offends them, that's not possible for they who do not believe. Evangelists (whom the rationalist-materialist scientistic sorts think are preaching make believe) offend their "take" on reality and reason. To hear some modern debates between believers and scientistic non believers, you could almost get the impression that there were only two world views in the whole wide world, Evangelical Christianity and hard scientism. And of course they don't like each other. But no one else need apply. In that dichotomy, no one else exists.

But yes, if they're offended, it's by what they see as an illogical/irrational rejection of scientific discoveries on the part of evangelical hardliners.
And nobody else with more subtle, metaphorical, or reasonable views even exist, or they don't notice them.
Everything is black and white or either or. (Nuanced debates don't get as good press)
 
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But of course there is no actual Father, no actual Son. They are human words to describe a relationship between eternal Spirit and changing nature. Spirit weaves nature. The greater house of Spirit surrounds and contains and permeates the room (dimension) of nature, that is bounded by walls of time and space and ends in death. There are many other dimensions within the house of spirit -- perhaps infinite other dimensions -- beside our present dimension of nature.
I like these kinds of deep analogies as they explain things in a way that sounds plausible, somewhere near concrete, and almost graspable, when other talk about trinities and being washed in the blood merely make my head spin. But this type of explanation comes very close to making real sense out of ancient teachings that have often only sounded like gibberish to me before. Thanks for the insight. 😇
 
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Yep

Of his only Son,
Again, not the teaching of Jesus: Didn't he teach his disciples to address God, saying "Our Father"?
Didn't he say that all those who do His (God's) Will are indeed his brothers and sisters?
the new Adam,
Where did you get that from?
to end all blood sacrifice.
Why should blood sacrifice end blood sacrifice. That's like fucking for virginity.
The Jews never practiced human sacrifice to God; even the practice of punishment by lot if a crime that would be punished by death penalty, that was practiced in the ancient times was no more practiced in the days of Jesus.
Many innocent people were killed afterwards. Formal offerings of animals ended with the destruction of the Temple, religious offers of a lamb, shared and eaten in community for Pesach is still practiced by Jews and even some Christians.
God's own son, in place of the son of Abraham.
God did not want the human sacrifice, it was only a test for Abraham. He never demanded any human sacrifice for Him but he accepted multiple times people who stayed to Him even in face of death. Most disciples of Jesus did that and were killed. Peace and the Glory of the God be on them.
It's so much greater. They just won't ever get it. They need to trivialize Jesus to justify their own religions, imo.
I don't know who are "they". I have great respect for Jesus, who spoke and lived the Word of God. That's why I take his message before secondary opinions.
Yet they all need to piggyback on Jesus to justify their derivative religions.
Same ole'
Matt 21:33-39

(edited)
I don't get what you want to say referring to Mt 21:33-39 and I do not appreciate your disrespectful formulation.
 
Why do Muslims insist on instructing Christians how to understand their own religion? All the time. Every day. Don't you guys have anything better to do with your lives?

Same ole' ...
 
Why do Muslims insist on instructing Christians how to understand their own religion? All the time. Every day. Don't you guys have anything better to do with your lives?

Same ole' ...
Note that you happen to discuss on an interreligious forum. That's essentially everyone says what he thinks. You can accept the opinion, consider it, reject, whatever you want.

Besides, I even didn't point to the message of Muhammad, but only to the message of Jesus, whom you accept.

Don't I have anything better to do in my life? Yes, of course. I am quite busy. Prepare food, sunset prayer soon, eat, call my mom, be with my daughter. If you want I stop to discuss with you.
 
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Note that you happen to discuss on an interreligious forum. That's essentially everyone says what he thinks.
Including me?

The mysteries of Christ have engaged the greatest minds and thinkers, and uplifted countless millions of souls from king to beggar for 2000 years -- and a couple of 21st Century Muslims pop up on the internet and think they can dismiss it all in a few words, because they need to try to prove to themselves that every word of the Quran is true

It's tiresome, man ...
 
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Again, not the teaching of Jesus: Didn't he teach his disciples to address God, saying "Our Father"?
Didn't he say that all those who do His (God's) Will are indeed his brothers and sisters?
He is our Father.. Jesus is also referred to as Father.. Son.. and God. Continuously proving that you don't understand what Christians believe. You can't apply logic to a mystery.. it's not our fault that God has not revealed the mystery to you.
Where did you get that from?

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
Why should blood sacrifice end blood sacrifice. That's like fucking for virginity.

I'm not sure if it's because English is not your first language but that word is very offensive.
The Jews never practiced human sacrifice to God; even the practice of punishment by lot if a crime that would be punished by death penalty, that was practiced in the ancient times was no more practiced in the days of Jesus.
Many innocent people were killed afterwards. Formal offerings of animals ended with the destruction of the Temple, religious offers of a lamb, shared and eaten in community for Pesach is still practiced by Jews and even some Christians.

This is why Jesus is referred to as the Spotless Lamb of God. The wages of sin is death and since life is in the blood.. the shedding of blood was required to cover sins. Once again you cant apply logic to a mystery. It's not our fault that God hasn't revealed that mystery to you.
I don't know who are "they". I have great respect for Jesus, who spoke and lived the Word of God. That's why I take his message before secondary opinions.

You are "they". You respect Jesus yet you don't even know Him. I worship Him as my God. The fact that you have to trivialize that because you don't believe it is very disrespectful.
I don't get what you want to say referring to Mt 21:33-39 and I do not appreciate your disrespectful formulation.
Jesus spoke in parables for two reasons Jesus appears to be telling his disciples that his use of parables is two-fold in Matthew 13:11-13 The first reason is so that his disciples could learn the kingdom's secrets, while others, who were not among his disciples, would be left in the dark.

So those who truly seek out Jesus' would have the meaning given... that is why the rest don't understand. It's not your fault since He is just a man to you. To us He is and has the answer to every mystery.. you can't apply logic to mysteries and the supernatural. It's not our fault that you cannot understand.
 
the shedding of blood was required to cover sin
I believe the shedding of blood was mistakenly believed to be required to cover sin -- the concept of sacrifice had become corrupted away from the principle of sacrifice as a gift of what was most valuable to God -- of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his own son -- to become the purely ritual and meaningless sacrifice of blood upon the altar.

Christ came to fix that corruption of the meaning of sacrifice, amongst the countless other mysteries that he accomplished by His sacrifice upon the cross as both priest and victim -- and bought the end to the corruption of blood as the meaningful part of the sacrifice, replaced by the consecration at the last supper of His own body and blood in the form of bread and wine, and by which He promised to be present in the Eucharist for all future generations.

IMO
 
I agree mostly with what you say. I also can't take away from the importance of the shedding of His blood and how precious the blood of God is.


I think when all is revealed to us in eternity .. it's just going to make complete perfect sense. His plan is perfect. The enemy accuses us and demands we deserve death and God circumvented that by providing Himself as a perfect sacrifice for us.

Imo 😇
 
also can't take away from the importance of the shedding of His blood and how precious the blood of God is.
I believe that perpetuating the principle of blood sacrifice in that way is to perpetuate the exact corrupted meaning of blood sacrifice that Christ gave his life upon the cross to do away with.

He replaced blood sacrifice by His own body and blood in the form of bread and wine in the Eucharist, imo
 
I don't deny the power of the blood of Christ, but IMO it's the giving of Himself, in full and final purity, and culminating in the Eucharistic sacrifice of bread and wine, replacing blood forever?

But then it's infinite levels

Sorry ...
 
Why do Muslims insist on instructing Christians how to understand their own religion? All the time. Every day. Don't you guys have anything better to do with your lives?

Same ole' ...
Well, Islam and Bahai, and Mormons, came AFTER Christianity and they each have their own spin on it all.
Does Christianity not re-interpret the Hebrew Bible?
Does Christianity, at least at times, want to get Jews to accept Christ?
(even though much of the theology of classical Christianity would be heresy in Judaism?)
 
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