Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

[Thomas]

My analysis is:
In the beginning there was the Messianic title "Son-of-God" given to the Messiah in the Psalms. (Jesus preferred the title "Son-of-men" from the vision of Daniel). That's where the notion "Son" originates.
The name of God was not pronounced in the time of Jesus. Instead of Adonai (Kyrios, Lord) Jesus taught to say "Father" to express the intimate relationship with God he had and he taught his disciples.
The Spirit of God has been mentioned and received by the old prophets. It's been this Spirit of God that helped the disciples and the later followers to confess and keep to the Word they had received under deepest oppression and many murders committed by the Roman authorities.
From there is the threefold formula for the confession of the belief "Father, Son, Holy Spirit"

OK, but that analysis makes no reference to the particular Scripture references upon which the doctrine stands.

The Trinity dogma is a kind of compromise in between.

That's certainly a view, but it's not irrefutable.

he difference to before was that this was now decreed as the true belief, and it was supported by stately, worldly power.
It's this power through which "the demons" acted, and finally led Christianity into deeper error and injustice.

I think that's an error of attribution?

 

[TheLightWithin]

Trinity is the most divisive, destructive, and contradictory doctrine in Christianity. I believe it was devised by demons to divide the church. Thousands have been tortured and murdered for rejecting it. The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) Some Protestants and most Evangelicals label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot of Revelation 17 and/or the beast and simply adopted it into their theology.

The history of the doctrine is clear.

1. Jesus became God in AD325 at the council of Nicaea.
2. The holy spirit became God in AD381 at the council of Constantinople.
3. Several arguments continued among the bishops - over 100 of them. They could not resolve the multiple contradictions the Trinity or 'Nature of God' presented. They overcame those contradictions in AD 451 under Pope Leo the Great. That's when Jesus acquired TWO NATURES which is the ultimate Trinitarian excuse for every contradiction.

Trinitarian dogma certainly made things complicate, perhaps unnecessarily so.
There are non trinitarian Christian denominations ex Christadelphians

 

[harmonicat]

Trinitarian dogma certainly made things complicate, perhaps unnecessarily so.
There are non trinitarian Christian denominations ex Christadelphians

There are some forums where IF one does NOT accept the trinity and Nicean creed - you are NOT considered a Christian. The only thing that accomplishes is it drives people away from Christianity. The heretical trinity doctrine does not determine whether someone is a Christian or not!

 

[harmonicat]

Trinitarian dogma certainly made things complicate, perhaps unnecessarily so.
There are non trinitarian Christian denominations ex Christadelphians

Christians have been discarding Trinity. Regardless of which survey - Barna, Pew, Lifeway, etc. Trinity is going downhill and people are throwing Trinity in the trash by large numbers. In one survey, over 50% of believers now say Trinity is bogus.

 

[RJM]

The heretical trinity doctrine

Heretical?

People forget it is the Catholic church, for all its failings, that has preserved the light of Christ down through two millennia, and down through every darkness. Without it there would be no gospels no Jesus, no Luther ... no Christianity

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew16:18

 

[Faithfulservant]

There are some forums where IF one does NOT accept the trinity and Nicean creed - you are NOT considered a Christian. The only thing that accomplishes is it drives people away from Christianity. The heretical trinity doctrine does not determine whether someone is a Christian or not!

Did someone offend you? I'm sorry if they did. I have a personal relationship with all three members of the Trinity and am sad when others do not. It's a mystery for sure how the Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit can all be God and I don't think it's something someone can just understand on their own. This is my truth. The Holy Spirit can be grieved and angered and impart teaching He can comfort and help. He was there at the baptism of Jesus.. separate from the Father. He filled John the Baptist while he was still in his mother's womb. I question how fruitful the walk of any Christian can be without Him as He points us to Jesus as Jesus points us to the Father.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Christians have been discarding Trinity. Regardless of which survey - Barna, Pew, Lifeway, etc. Trinity is going downhill and people are throwing Trinity in the trash by large numbers. In one survey, over 50% of believers now say Trinity is bogus.

I would challenge this statement that it's not the Trinity that's going downhill it's Christianity. And one of the causes of that would be throwing the Trinity in the trash.

 

[harmonicat]

Did someone offend you? I'm sorry if they did. I have a personal relationship with all three members of the Trinity and am sad when others do not. It's a mystery for sure how the Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit can all be God and I don't think it's something someone can just understand on their own. This is my truth. The Holy Spirit can be grieved and angered and impart teaching He can comfort and help. He was there at the baptism of Jesus.. separate from the Father. He filled John the Baptist while he was still in his mother's womb. I question how fruitful the walk of any Christian can be without Him as He points us to Jesus as Jesus points us to the Father.

So you believe in something you cannot understand. For me and most others, it's the contradictions in Trinity that causes people to disbelieve it.

Jesus was fully human...

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

What you need to realize is the hypostatic union destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says he was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

 

[harmonicat]

Heretical?

People forget it is the Catholic church, for all its failings, that has preserved the light of Christ down through two millennia, and down through every darkness. Without it there would be no gospels no Jesus, no Luther ... no Christianity

Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew16:18

I often go to a local Catholic Church and play music with a bunch of them. I really don't care if people believe in trinity or not. My issues are that trinitarians play up this doctrine too much. Some say that if you reject trinity - which I fully reject - you are NOT a Christian. This is why I can't stand John MacArthur. The only people he serves are those extremists who idolize him. He drives people OUT and prevents people from coming in.

It took over 200 years to concoct the trinity doctrine and it was founded through torture and MURDER - and that's the truth!

 

[harmonicat]

I would challenge this statement that it's not the Trinity that's going downhill it's Christianity. And one of the causes of that would be throwing the Trinity in the trash.

Take a look back at the history of the surveys. Go back to the year 1990 or before. MOST Christians, close to 90% believed in Trinity. In 2,000, about 25-33% of Christians rejected Trinity. Today the numbers are way up. Some surveys - over 50% reject it.

 

[harmonicat]

Did someone offend you? I'm sorry if they did. I have a personal relationship with all three members of the Trinity and am sad when others do not. It's a mystery for sure how the Father Jesus and the Holy Spirit can all be God and I don't think it's something someone can just understand on their own. This is my truth. The Holy Spirit can be grieved and angered and impart teaching He can comfort and help. He was there at the baptism of Jesus.. separate from the Father. He filled John the Baptist while he was still in his mother's womb. I question how fruitful the walk of any Christian can be without Him as He points us to Jesus as Jesus points us to the Father.

Did someone offend me? Here's a reply from an illustrious Trinitarian on another forum. I'll let you decide...

"Actually you'd be correct that ALL Christians DO believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, for the simple reason that it's clearly, and blatantly taught in the Scriptures. All people professing faith in the LORD Jesus Christ, while denying His LORDship, are deceived, and are members of non-Christian cults. To deny the Trinity and yet claim to be a Christian is like denying the Law of Moses and claiming to be an orthodox Jew. So again, no matter what they might say, no matter what they name their religious organization, they are outside the covenant; strangers to God; under His wrath and curse, and will die in their sins unless they repent (which is a gift of God, and not something a person musters up within himself) and believe upon the LORD Jesus Christ. Anyone reading the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, and taking them as they clearly teach cannot but walk away with anything other than a Trinitarian Doctrine. Those who deny this absolutely essential Doctrine prove themselves to be unregenerate, and as the Apostle John described them, antichrist."

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Those who deny this absolutely essential Doctrine prove themselves to be unregenerate, and as the Apostle John described them, antichrist."

Absurd .. satan only wishes to divide and cause enmity .. and history shows that he's good at
it.

 

[RJM]

you believe in something you cannot understand. For me and most others, it's the contradictions in Trinity that causes people to disbelieve it.

Most people don't understand the theory of Relativity -- doesn't mean it's false

the trinity doctrine and it was founded through torture and MURDER - and that's the truth!

No it's not

It is the Trinitarian Catholic Church that preserved the New Testament and the words of Jesus Christ for 21st Century folks to read and argue about on the internet -- down through all the ages and through all wars and political turmoils and population events.

The Protestant churches only came into being about 500 years ago, and groups like the JW's much later.

Without the Catholic Church, for all its faults and failings, there would be no New Testament Christ, no collated gospels, carefully preserved and copied by countless generations of monks for century upon century, until the advent of the printing press and the protestant reformation.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Take a look back at the history of the surveys. Go back to the year 1990 or before. MOST Christians, close to 90% believed in Trinity. In 2,000, about 25-33% of Christians rejected Trinity. Today the numbers are way up. Some surveys - over 50% reject it.

Church of Laodicea.. I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Faithfulservant]

So you believe in something you cannot understand. For me and most others, it's the contradictions in Trinity that causes people to disbelieve it.

Jesus was fully human...

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

What you need to realize is the hypostatic union destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says he was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Jesus is God. He was fully human and tempted as we are but did not sin. That was what made Him the perfect lamb to sacrifice. It took the blood of God Himself to cover the sins past present and future of the entire world. To replace the sin offering. I'm sorry my friend you are deceived.

 

[RJM]

My issues are that trinitarians play up this doctrine too much. Some say that if you reject trinity - which I fully reject - you are NOT a Christian. This is why I can't stand John MacArthur. The only people he serves are those extremists who idolize him. He drives people OUT and prevents people from coming in.

I completely agree.

Since when do the American televangelist 'We Christians Club' get to declare who is a Christian?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I completely agree.

Since when do the American televangelist 'We Christians Club' get to declare who is a Christian?

To be fair I would not consider John MacArthur a televangelist. I do believe the apostolic church defined the Christian church and a lot of churches these days have strayed far from that.

 

[harmonicat]

Absurd .. satan only wishes to divide and cause enmity .. and history shows that he's good at
it.

"Those who deny this absolutely essential Doctrine prove themselves to be unregenerate, and as the Apostle John described them, antichrist."

I'm not the one who said that. That reply comes from an extremist Calvinist from another forum.

 

[harmonicat]

Jesus is God. He was fully human and tempted as we are but did not sin. That was what made Him the perfect lamb to sacrifice. It took the blood of God Himself to cover the sins past present and future of the entire world. To replace the sin offering. I'm sorry my friend you are deceived.

Hebrews 2:17 says, Jesus was fully human in every way." Can you quote a passage that says Jesus is "FULLY" God?

The OT says more than once that "God cannot be a man."

 

[harmonicat]

Most people don't understand the theory of Relativity -- doesn't mean it's false
No it's not

It is the Trinitarian Catholic Church that preserved the New Testament and the words of Jesus Christ for 21st Century folks to read and argue about on the internet -- down through all the ages and through all wars and political turmoils and population events.

The Protestant churches only came into being about 500 years ago, and groups like the JW's much later.

Without the Catholic Church, for all its faults and failings, there would be no New Testament Christ, no collated gospels, carefully preserved and copied by countless generations of monks for century upon century, until the advent of the printing press and the protestant reformation.

Thousands were murdered for rejecting trinity. People were also tortured and murdered over Baptism. Even Calvin murdered a few non-trinitarians. He even murdered a young boy for disobeying his parents.