Do serve God...or a 'Trinity'?

It might "work" for you .. not me ;)

That is not to say that I don't respect Jesus and Muhammad .. you know that I do.

Well, I'm not Christian so I'm not attached to the doctrine, but although it is complex and hard to understand, I don't get why it is so controversial. People who say it doesn't make sense- well, why would God make complete sense to us? He's God. Of course He is complex.
 
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..although it is complex and hard to understand, I don't get why it is so controversial..
satan likes to cause division :(
It's all about authority, and what/who we should follow.

People who say it doesn't make sense- well, why would God make complete sense to us? He's God. Of course He is complex.
The nature of G-d .. yes .. we cannot comprehend in its entirety.
..but regards to "tawheed" .. the Oneness of God .. that is fundamental.
 
The nature of G-d .. yes .. we cannot comprehend in its entirety.
..but regards to "tawheed" .. the Oneness of God .. that is fundamental.

But tawhid is not a Christian doctrine, so it makes sense that Christians would think of God differently than Muslims. Christians do believe in one God though.
 
Well, it is the nature of the thread..
One might stick to the "Christian" board .. and even then, there are many Christians who don't believe Jesus is God.
@theMadJW being one of them.

I don't think it is helpful to suggest that he is not a Christian .. that is what the Roman
Empire started .. one has to believe such-and-such, or they are infidels. :)
So I'm being relegated to the Christian subforum now? Are you sending me to my room?
 
He was ALWAYS teaching about his God... and Father.
So, nice try!

(Repated meme removed by moderator)
Your reply wasn't even really a reply nor really addressed anything I said.
Also, my reply wasn't a "try" --as I'm one of the last people who would confidently defend trinitarian doctrine or anything- it makes my head spin-- but my remark was a comment that you couldn't really engage with.
I was trying to clarify the logic of an earlier comment of yours.
I would love to have someone like a JW or a Christadelphian or and Armstrong church remnant believer who came from a strong biblical background and shared their reasons for being non trinitarian believers. Would love it.
The difficulty is you are rather combative with people. With everyone.
Even with those of us who for various reasons are not in direct conflict with you doctrine wise ex regarding the trinity.
 
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No, just a rude and insulting person, uninterested in any real interfaith discussion. This is a member's website. This isn't Facebook

Do we need this guy, folks?
We never need the rudeness. We need people to be personable! Courteous!
We need the diversity of views. I'd love to have a mix of non trinitarians like JWs and Christadelphians, or Quakers, alongside traditionalists of all stripes, along with Progressives --
I'm disappointed that we somehow cannot seem to shake this business of otherwise interesting people being so outright combative!!😕😒
 
Well, I'm not Christian so I'm not attached to the doctrine, but although it is complex and hard to understand, I don't get why it is so controversial. People who say it doesn't make sense- well, why would God make complete sense to us? He's God. Of course He is complex.
I think saying it makes no sense -- well the trinity doesn't make sense to many. Me it makes my head spin. I've tried to get my head around that teaching in various ways. There have been a few comments on this forum during the months I've been here that have said things to make the trinity almost graspable. So I appreciate those things. But I'm a long way from being able to embrace or defend the Trinity doctrine on my own.

But as far as why it's controversial and why people feel the need to complain that it doesn't make sense, the reason is as follows:

The reason comes from both how dogmatic the teaching of the Trinity is, and also history.
The teaching was controversial in early church history when some people said "trinity" and others said "nuh-uh" or "Hunh?" and anybody who didn't agree "trinity" was deemed a heretic and things got nasty.

Today, in most churches the classical dogma of the trinity is still adhered to. Most, possibly overwhelmingly most, but not all.
But if you say "well I don't believe in that or don't understand it enough to defend it at least" most trinitarians -- and certainly church hierarchies -- will NOT say "ok cool nobody understands God anyway so it's not a problem if you don't accept the Trinity"

No, that is NOT the reaction you will usually get UNLESS you are in a Progressive / Liberal Christian church. THEN you might get that relaxed, kind, accepting, cordial reaction. But the church does have to be really liberal for that. (or maybe Quaker, liberal or not, or of course, the explicitly non trinitarian churches, which are often very conservative and bible-literal in their own way)

Because in most places (regular churches) if you deny or even question the Trinity, you might get pretty unpleasant reactions, shocked faces, and snotty rude words from people.
And be unwelcome. Oh, and you'll DEFINITELY be told "You're not really Christian"

So -- the doctrine controversial because if you don't at least to pretend to agree with it, you are not well received.
It's controversial because it is defended too hard by its adherents.
It's controversial because classical Christian dogma doesn't allow you the freedom to simply speculate on the nature of God, or maintain a Jewish view of God. Nope, HAS to be the trinity. Too bad what you actually think or wonder.

It's controversial because it's one of those areas that classical Christianity has decided it has drawn a line in the sand and if you don't agree with it you've got a fight on your hands, and won't be able to remain in some churches.

What you said is right. Why would God make complete sense to us? Of course not!
The problem is, the Trinity doctrine at least sort of claims to have made sense of God, seems to be making truth claims, seems to be making factual claims about God, but if you're puzzled about it and show skepticism or if you want to adhere to the more fully "indivisible" idea of God found in Judaism or if you want to be free to speculate -- Well, you're seen as an apostate at the very least, and your ideas will be regarded at least in some circles as a threat to Christian teaching.

Somebody or many somebodies decided, very early on, that the trinity was FOUNDATIONAL to Christianity and no deviation was allowed, and many, many, MANY people still think that way. 😒 :confused: 😑 :rolleyes: 🤔 o_O :oops:
 
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How confusing..
Was Jesus talking about His Father or Himself?
..so Jesus is not the Father .. but He is God .. and the Father is also God .. ummm o_O
How confusing.
When Allah refers to himself as 'we' does that mean he is one, or more than one?
So Almighty God is one ... but he is more than one ... but he is one ... ummm o_O
It might "work" for you .. not me
And you are entitled to your own opinion. But does that make you correct?
satan likes to cause division :(
Who is divided? Are trinitarian Christians supposed to follow Muslim belief, in order there should be no division?
It's all about authority, and what/who we should follow.
Yes. Christians don't follow the Quran
 
The Mod threatened to BAN me if I keep on repeating myself ('Interfaith', indeed)-so go to that thread where I am starting to do that.
 
The Mod threatened to BAN me if I keep on repeating myself ('Interfaith', indeed)-so go to that thread where I am starting to do that.
Aren't you capable of providing the link?

Here:

Why don't you start trying to explain yourself reasonably to people, and stop being so rude?

You are requested not to keep repeating the same memes across multiple threads
 
I RUDE?
If I were to post as graphic explaining what John 1:1 really means, you mean I just have to type it out?
Oh, well!
 
I RUDE?
If I were to post as graphic explaining what John 1:1 really means, you mean I just have to type it out?
Oh, well!
No, by all means post your graphic, unless it is one you have already posted repeatedly, in which case just link back to that post?
 
How confusing.
When Allah refers to himself as 'we' does that mean he is one, or more than one?
Greetings.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Himself as ‘We’ simply because the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. In this language, it is linguistically correct to use pronoun ‘We’ (nahnu) when speaking of one who is worthy of the utmost respect.

In classical Arabic, ‘We’ denotes divine majesty. This rhetorical device has fallen into disuse in modern Arabic (and in current English, it would seem), creating the impression that it denotes plurality of persons. It does not.

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) also uses the words ‘I’ (ana) and ‘He’ (huwa) when referring to Himself.

The Beloved uses the word ‘I’ in moments of intimacy:

‘So remember Me; I will remember you. Be thankful to Me, and never ungrateful.’ (Al-Baqara: 152).

And this:

‘Tell My servants I am the All-forgiving, the All-compassionate…’ (Al-Hijr: 49)

And in a famous Ḥadīth Qudsi:

‘The Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) said that Allah says,

“I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assembly better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.” (Bukhari).

Blessings.
 
The teaching was controversial in early church history when some people said "trinity" and others said "nuh-uh" or "Hunh?" and anybody who didn't agree "trinity" was deemed a heretic and things got nasty.

Persecution of religious dissenters is always wrong, of course.
Because in most places (regular churches) if you deny or even question the Trinity, you might get pretty unpleasant reactions, shocked faces, and snotty rude words from people.
And be unwelcome. Oh, and you'll DEFINITELY be told "You're not really Christian"
It's controversial because it's one of those areas that classical Christianity has decided it has drawn a line in the sand and if you don't agree with it you've got a fight on your hands, and won't be able to remain in some churches.

But I don't think this is wrong on their end really (obviously the rudeness is not okay, but). I mean, the Trinity is fundamental to most Christian denominations. Of course you can't go into a Catholic Church and disagree with the Trinity and expect to remain a member in good standing. Because the Trinity is essential to being a Catholic. You also probably couldn't go into a Mosque and disagree with Tawhid or go into a Sikh Gurdwara and say the Guru Granth Sahib isn't the last Guru. But nothing is stopping anyone anymore from creating their own religion or their own denomination, or joining the ones that exist, and promoting a different view.
 
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No
Persecution of religious dissenters is always wrong, of course.



But I don't think this is wrong on their end really (obviously the rudeness is not okay, but). I mean, the Trinity is fundamental to most Christian denominations. Of course you can't go into a Catholic Church and disagree with the Trinity and expect to remain a member in good standing. Because the Trinity is essential to being a Catholic. You also probably couldn't go into a Mosque and disagree with Tawhid or go into a Sikh Gurdwara and say the Guru Granth Sahib isn't the last Guru. But nothing is stopping anyone anymore from creating their own religion or their own denomination, or joining the ones that exist, and promoting a different view.
Not so sure about the Sikh. As I have understood it, Guru in the Sikh teachings is not bound to a person. The notion of it is close to what we understand by the Holy Spirit.
 
Not so sure about the Sikh. As I have understood it, Guru in the Sikh teachings is not bound to a person. The notion of it is close to what we understand by the Holy Spirit.

I may be wrong, but I don't think that's correct. "Guru" (such as Waheguru) is a term used for God, but also for the Sikh holy text. Sikhs have a line of Gurus, the last one being not a person but their holy text itself, the Guru Granth Sahib. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh_gurus.
 
The Trinity is NOT a Christian Doctrine- it is Catholic and adopted by the Protestant Churches long ago.

Unless you can find Jesus speaking about it it is antibiblical, antichristian.
 
The Trinity is NOT a Christian Doctrine- it is Catholic and adopted by the Protestant Churches long ago.
Two things:
The Doctrine of the Trinity was declared before the Roman Catholic Church existed as a distinct entity – it was declared, and championed, primarily by Eastern theologians. There are, of course, Western/Latin champions – Hilary of Poitiers, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine of Hippo, Leo the Great – but there is also Athanasius of Alexandria, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus, belonging to the Eastern Orthodox Church ... so this hysteria with Catholicism (by which is meant Roman Catholicism) as the root of all eveil is patently nonsense.

It's a Catholic doctrine, an Orthodox doctrine, a Coptic doctrine, etc., etc.

I can find Jesus speaking about it ... that you can't is not the fault of Scripture.

The whole catholic (ie universal) church was Trinitarian from the get-go – Baptism, first recorded c96AD, is according to a trinitarian formula.
 
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