Absolute Truth

TheLightWithin said:
This kind of reminds me of my uncle with his beer and cigarette being snarky and snarly about my formal education when he didn't have one.
He was a truck driver and I didn't drive.
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Gotta watch out for us old truck drivers... ;)

Lots of miles with nothing better to do than contemplate the mysteries of the universe. :D
 
juantoo3 said:
Did you not say "I don't think the golden rule is the most important part of religion imo."?

What, to you, is the most important part of religion?
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Oh, I didn't understand what you were asking. I think that in the modern world we tend to think of religion as being about morality, but I don't think it is. Morality is of course an important part of it, but I think religion is so much more than that. I think (from my very limited vantage point) the most important element of religion is truth. Truth that exceeds the mundane day to day, but also encompasses it. It gives us the answers to the most important questions (why we exist, is there life after death, is there a God or gods, etc.)

Religion is the most beautiful expression of humanity, in my opinion, and I think it encompasses all of human experience, not just the golden rule or morality.
 
Modesty said:
The truth is good because it compels us to act, but the truth is good for its own sake too.
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What is truth?

Left untreated, a rattlesnake bite will kill. That is truth.

I don't think all truth is "good," at least not in any religious sense. Two sides to every coin.
 
Modesty said:
Oh, I didn't understand what you were asking. I think that in the modern world we tend to think of religion as being about morality, but I don't think it is. Morality is of course an important part of it, but I think religion is so much more than that. I think (from my very limited vantage point) the most important element of religion is truth. Truth that exceeds the mundane day to day, but also encompasses it. It gives us the answers to the most important questions (why we exist, is there life after death, is there a God or gods, etc.)

Religion is the most beautiful expression of humanity, in my opinion, and I think it encompasses all of human experience, not just the golden rule or morality.
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I think I get what you are saying. "Truth" is such a loaded word though, I can't give a one size fits all answer.

In my view, the major faiths all attempt to see, to understand, to explain in a culturally specific manner "the Absolute Truth." Humans being what we are, cannot fully see and cannot fully fathom the Absolute in its entirety. We try, some of us try really hard, to understand as much as a human possibly can, but simply being in this physical presence limits our ability to "see." We do the best we can (some of us, anyway).

Some questions to me are pointless and meaningless. How old is the universe? - what does that have to do with my salvation? Nothing. I can spout the party line - 14 Billion years plus or minus - and for some that is truth. But that isn't Absolute Truth, and frankly is irrelevant to my faithwalk.

I don't know if this provides any insight, but the bottom line is that in order to get to the "next level," we have to play out this one correctly - to use a video game analogy. So I am right back at Hillel and the Golden Rule, and all the rest is commentary.
 
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juantoo3 said:
Some questions to me are pointless and meaningless. How old is the universe? - what does that have to do with my salvation? Nothing. I can spout the party line - 14 Billion years plus or minus - and for some that is truth. But that isn't Absolute Truth, and frankly is irrelevant to my faithwalk.

I don't know if this provides any insight, but the bottom line is that in order to get to the "next level," we have to play out this one correctly - to play on a video game analogy. So I am right back at Hillel and the Golden Rule, and all the rest is commentary.
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I think we're just coming from different viewpoints. I don't believe in the concept of salvation per se, at least not how its commonly understood.

juantoo3 said:
The point is that truth is neither good nor bad, it simply is.
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But I think the more we know the truth, the more we know God. Furthermore, to take your point about the rattlesnake, it is good we know the truth that an untreated rattlesnake bite will kill, because at one point in humanity, we didn't know that. Or at least, we didn't know what venom was. Knowing the truth allows us to avoid rattlesnakes and to treat bites with the appropriate antivenom.
 
RJM said:
For once we agree. For two millennia all sorts have tried, and managed to apply them to whatever cause they wish to advance -- although I see you do not hesitate to advance your own interpretation of Revelations as the correct one?
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Firstly my comment was based on an interpretation given by Abdul'baha, who gave that explanation of the Beast. When I try and interpretation, I say so.

I didn't interpret the passages more than what He offered.

Here is a link.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
www.bahai.org www.bahai.org

Extract

"....“And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.”61 This dragon represents the Umayyads, who seized the reins of the religion of Muḥammad; and the seven heads and seven crowns represent the seven dominions and kingdoms over which they came to rule: the Roman dominion in Syria; the Persian, the Arabian, and the Egyptian dominions; the dominion of Africa—that is, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turkish tribes of Transoxania. The Umayyads gained power over all these dominions. The ten horns represent the names of the Umayyad rulers, for, barring repetition, they are ten sovereigns, or ten names of chiefs and rulers. The first is Abú-Sufyán and the last is Marván. Some of their names have been repeated, including two Mu‘áviyihs, three Yazíds, two Valíds, and two Marváns. If, however, these names are each counted only once, they number ten in total. These Umayyads—the first of whom was Abú-Sufyán, the former chief of Mecca and founder of the dynasty, and the last of whom was Marván—destroyed a third of the holy and sanctified souls who descended from the pure lineage of Muḥammad and who were even as the stars of heaven..."

Regards Tony
 
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Modesty said:
I think we're just coming from different viewpoints. I don't believe in the concept of salvation per se, at least not how its commonly understood.
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If there is no afterlife (if the soul does not continue after the death of the flesh body), then what is the point of (any) religion?
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(Pascal's Wager)
Modesty said:
But I think the more we know the truth, the more we know God.
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I politely disagree. If we don't obey G!d, then no amount of "knowing truth" about "Him" will matter.
 
RJM said:
If they all left Jesus alone, they would have more credibility. There should be no need for their new holy guru to reference other holy beings. He should shine by his own light, imo, not hang on the hem of the robe of Jesus.

But just my opinion.
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That is logically not possible, if they teach they are all One in the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said, the First and Last Messenger, the Muslims also veiled by the word "Last".

It becomes our quandary, our personal attachment to this world and its Names.

Regards Tony
 
Modesty said:
I believe in an afterlife, but I do not believe in hell.
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That's fine. My jury is still out on that one.

I don't think G!d created 3/4 of the people in the world just to be fuel for an everlasting bonfire, so I do agree there is something about the common understanding that doesn't jibe with how I read the Bible.

Still, it isn't what we know, it is what we do with what we know...
 
juantoo3 said:
If there is no afterlife (if the soul does not continue after the death of the flesh body), then what is the point of (any) religion?
View attachment 3693(Pascal's Wager)

I politely disagree. If we don't obey G!d, then no amount of "knowing truth" about "Him" will matter.
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Of course, different religions have different afterlife doctrines so this chart, while seemingly logical, is based on premises that not every religion holds to. Even some branches of Christianity (JWs, Christadelphians, SDAs, Armstrong churches) believe in conditionalism/annihilation. Other religions believe in reincarnation. How do they fit into this wager?
 
juantoo3 said:
Some questions to me are pointless and meaningless. How old is the universe? - what does that have to do with my salvation? Nothing.
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Per salvation: As intrigued as I have forever been about the afterlife, my understanding of salvation never jibed fully with it.
We need a savior in this life. Both as individuals and as humanity collectively. We need a savior in this world, in some form or another, on THIS side of death.
Perhaps one is needed for the other side as well, but in the meantime, while we are here, we need help, individually and collectively.
 
juantoo3 said:
View attachment 3677
View attachment 3678
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There's a kind of anti-intellectualism in all this that has me giving it the side-eye.
It starts early in life, in elementary school, where many kids get so oddly mad at "the smart kid" "the nerd"
Whether it's because of their own honest bruised egos or whether they learn it from their parents I cannot say.
Saying someone is "an educated idiot" is pejorative, ad hominem, and belittling.
What is the point of it? Are you trying to hurt people's feelings?
What if you succeed and they feel bad? Have you won? Will things be done better? Will they say "gee I'm not so good, I like you better now" ?
What if you fail and they don't feel hurt? But they just think "sheesh what's the matter with that guy?"
I'm not sure what's up, but often enough when we belittle others it's because we feel belittled.
Does the existence of a straight A student or someone with an advanced degree ipso facto belittle yourself or others by their very existence?
What is the actual problem (if any) with intellectualism and/or advanced education, and how can it be better addressed?
 
TheLightWithin said:
Of course, different religions have different afterlife doctrines so this chart, while seemingly logical, is based on premises that not every religion holds to. Even some branches of Christianity (JWs, Christadelphians, SDAs, Armstrong churches) believe in conditionalism/annihilation. Other religions believe in reincarnation. How do they fit into this wager?
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Every believer of any faith makes the same essential wager though. The "conditions" might slightly change, but one has faith in what one understands to be Truth, and the wager is whether or not you picked the correct one. Most of us (until the past few generations) are born into a faith, and certain faiths are tied inextricably to the culture...and genetics. That's just history / anthropology 101.

I mean, how many millions of JWs are there? And aren't there only supposed to be like 144 thousand that make it to heaven? Gonna be a lot of disappointed JWs... <shrug>

I live my life, this life, betting this is the *only* life I get. It's guaranteed - I'm living it. Pascal's Wager. If I'm wrong, see you next time around. If I'm right, I go home.
 
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