Absolute Truth

Vasu Devan said:
On the level of humankind, almost certainly. On the level of the individual, I would still believe it of myself at least. I cannot speak for others of course....but I know they're out there.
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This is one aspect of Catholicism I found very attractive. The idea of radical forgiveness.
 
Modesty said:
This is one aspect of Catholicism I found very attractive. The idea of radical forgiveness.
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Is it solely of Catholicism though? And they created so many sins and only made forgivable through the Church confessionals.

Jesus, on the other hand, preached unconditional love and forgiveness for all. To love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us as well.

Matthew 5:44: “But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Luke 6:27-28: “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.”

Of course, I am not Xtian and I don't follow the Bible. But there are many parts of Jesus' message that I agree with. If I ever became a Xtian, I would probably join one of the Universalist churches.
 
Vasu Devan said:
Is it solely of Catholicism though? And they created so many sins and only made forgivable through the Church confessionals
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No, I definitely don’t think radical forgiveness is limited to Catholicism. Nor do I think the Church or Christianity in general has always lived up to that ideal. But it wasn’t a concept I had ever really encountered before converting, having grown up in a very secular environment.
 
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Modesty said:
No, I definitely don’t think radical forgiveness is limited to Catholicism. Nor do I think the Church or Christianity in general has always lived up to that ideal. But it wasn’t a concept I had ever really encountered before conveying, having grown up in a very secular environment.
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Since you are seeking a loving Xtianity still, have you ever looked into Universalist Christian churches? They possibly follow the loving teachings of Jesus most closely when compared with any other Christian sect. Here is a quick comparison:
  • Universalist Christian churches believe that all people will eventually be saved and reconciled with God, regardless of their faith or actions in this life. They reject the idea of eternal damnation or hell for anyone. Catholic churches, on the other hand, teach that salvation is only possible through faith in Jesus Christ and the sacraments of the church. They also believe that some people will be condemned to hell for their sins, unless they repent and receive God’s mercy
  • Universalist Christian churches do not have a central authority or hierarchy, but are autonomous and diverse in their beliefs and practices. They do not recognize the pope as the head of the church or the infallible teacher of faith and morals. They also do not accept the doctrines of papal primacy, apostolic succession, or the magisterium (the teaching authority of the church). Catholic churches, on the contrary, are united under the leadership of the pope and the bishops, who claim to have inherited the authority and mission of the apostles. They also adhere to the official teachings of the church on matters of faith and morals, as defined by the pope and the councils
  • Universalist Christian churches have a more liberal and inclusive approach to theology, ethics, and social issues. They welcome people of different backgrounds, orientations, and perspectives, and encourage dialogue and diversity. They also support human rights, social justice, and environmental stewardship. Catholic churches have a more conservative and exclusive stance on theology, ethics, and social issues. They uphold the traditional doctrines of the church, such as the Trinity, the incarnation, the virgin birth, the resurrection, and the immaculate conception. They also oppose abortion, contraception, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, and ordination of women
 
Vasu Devan said:
Since you are seeking a loving Xtianity still, have you ever looked into Universalist Christian churches? They possibly follow the loving teachings of Jesus most closely when compared with any other Christian sect. Here is a quick comparison:
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I’m actually no longer interested in Christianity! I definitely am still actively seeking a belief system to be a part of, but me and Christianity have split our ways haha. I do 100% agree with universalism though. I don’t believe in hell anymore.
 
Vasu Devan said:
They also oppose abortion, contraception, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, and ordination of women
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I followed that link. The site seems to be trying to compare and contrast Catholics vs Christians, even asking "are Catholics and Christians the same" and concluding "no". That simply isn't historical. Catholics ARE Christians. Non-denominationalists (that's what I think the holders of that site probably are. They don't really seem to be universalists) may have no other word for themselves other than "Christian" however, that doesn't make them Christian and the other branches of Christianity not Christian or somehow in contrast to Christianity. (So they are going beyond the usual trick of saying the heterodox Christians are not Christian)
 
TheLightWithin said:
I followed that link. The site seems to be trying to compare and contrast Catholics vs Christians, even asking "are Catholics and Christians the same" and concluding "no". That simply isn't historical. Catholics ARE Christians. Non-denominationalists (that's what I think the holders of that site probably are. They don't really seem to be universalists) may have no other word for themselves other than "Christian" however, that doesn't make them Christian and the other branches of Christianity not Christian or somehow in contrast to Christianity. (So they are going beyond the usual trick of saying the heterodox Christians are not Christian)
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oh i didnt realize there was a link in that text. Just copied the text from a page. In any case, Universalism does not deny that Catholics are Xtians.
 
Modesty said:
I’m actually no longer interested in Christianity! I definitely am still actively seeking a belief system to be a part of,
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I have learned in my old age, that if I am to follow any belief system, I have to be willing to change myself. I left the Catholic Church as a teenager, there were too many temptations in the world, and I didn't want to be constantly reminded; that I shouldn't succumb to temptation. As Oscar Wilde famously said, I can resist everything -------------- Except temptation.

I came back to the church when I was about fifty, and I still feel like an outsider. The priority of the church almost seems like, bottoms on seats to pay for the upkeep of the church. I feel more drawn towards ministries that help the homeless, the ex - offenders, food banks, people struggling with suicide and mental health issues.

I am passionate about Christian denominations working together for the good of the community, and this is where I find my greatest joy. I would also like to see more interfaith cooperation in our town. Whilst we have an interfaith group, sadly, we are not so active.
 
Modesty said:
This is one aspect of Catholicism I found very attractive. The idea of radical forgiveness.
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Every time we say the Lord's prayer, we Tell God what to do!

God, forgive me, in exactly the same way I forgive my enemy. Which has to mean, if I cant forgive, then don't forgive me in the same way.

Do the millions of Christians who regularly say this prayer, understand the implications of what we are saying?
 
Vasu Devan said:
Is it (radical forgiveness) solely of Catholicism though?
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Modesty said:
No, I definitely don’t think radical forgiveness is limited to Catholicism. Nor do I think the Church or Christianity in general has always lived up to that ideal.
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No. again, this was an (unspoken) doctrine prior to the split between Latin West and Greek East. It's there in the theology of the oldest Christian denominations, but has become eclipsed by those later, notably the Reformation traditions.

There are Catholic and Orthodox theologians, notably the indisputably heavyweight and influential David Bentley Hart (Orthodox) and the equally indisputably heavyweight and influential Illaria Ramelli, who write powerfully in favour of the idea of the apokatastasis – the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection (a type of Christian Universalism)

Distinction occur over the idea of the existence, or otherwise, of hell. Following Scripture and the Fathers, I would argue that Hell does exist – if even only as a potentiality – and that the duration in that state is not eternal, the suffering (all Medieval imagery aside – thank you Danté) is corrective and remedial, and does not last forever.

Indeed, as Pope-Emeritus Benedict XVI argued, that 'time' is a misnomer in the eschaton, as time is in reference to the physical domain, not the spiritual domain, and that this period of suffering could be considered momentary (yet no less painful),l taking place in a face-to-face with the Risen Jesus who strips all the illusions from the soul, bares all sin, and reaches out a hand in forgiveness – in a sense asking two things, acknowledge the truth of your own being, and acknowledge me – it is then up to us whether we accept (ie repent) the offer or not.

Again, theologically, the argument is, and must be, that God creates us free, does not coerce, and the choice is ours. Quite how then, with all error stripped away, one can still refuse to accept the offer escapes me, but we must allow for it or the idea of freedom becomes illusory.

So hell is something along the lines of the 'shewings' of Julian of Norwich – it exists, but is empty.
The apokatastasis was preached by the early Fathers, notably Clement of Alexandria, Origen and that great Trinitarian, Gregory of Nyssa, as well as, according to DBH, that other Cappadocian giant, Basil the Great.

Some universalists point towards mistranslations of the Greek word αιών (aion – a period of time) in the Latin Vulgate as aeternam, this latter term meaning eternal. The Greek term does not imply eternity as such.

Vasu Devan said:
And they created so many sins and only made forgivable through the Church confessionals.
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Again, not the Catholic Church, but the Church as such in its day.

Vasu Devan said:
Jesus, on the other hand, preached unconditional love and forgiveness for all. To love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us as well.
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Yes, but He also preached damnation ...

Vasu Devan said:
But there are many parts of Jesus' message that I agree with.
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But for the Christian, it is necessarily all or nothing – we cannot pick-and-choose, rather we have to seek the meaning. Choice is largely determined by the sitz im leben, the reasons why people might reject sin/hell today are often sentimental and as sociological as the reasons why sin and hell was argued as absolute.

We like to think of ourselves today as 'enlightened', but that's all part of the illusion.
 
EricPH said:
Every time we say the Lord's prayer, we Tell God what to do!
God, forgive me, in exactly the same way I forgive my enemy. Which has to mean, if I cant forgive, then don't forgive me in the same way.
Do the millions of Christians who regularly say this prayer, understand the implications of what we are saying?
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That's quite an interpretation ...
 
EricPH said:
Every time we say the Lord's prayer, we Tell God what to do!

God, forgive me, in exactly the same way I forgive my enemy. Which has to mean, if I cant forgive, then don't forgive me in the same way.

Do the millions of Christians who regularly say this prayer, understand the implications of what we are saying?
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OK, so you can point out my hypocrisy when I get around to murdering someone.

Forgive that ye may be forgiven...I preach that one myself. I've never murdered another person, have no desire to murder another person, and don't foresee ever murdering another person. I see a huge difference, whereas someone more interested in enabling anti-moral behavior may not see the distinction.

For those that may think I am being extreme, tell that to the (yet another) little child murdered over this past weekend for no reason other than being in the crossfire of yet another gang shooting committed by teenagers, clearly not being taught to respect others (parent(s) / guardian(s) enabling anti-morality).
 
Thomas said:
There are Catholic and Orthodox theologians, notably the indisputably heavyweight and influential David Bentley Hart (Orthodox) and the equally indisputably heavyweight and influential Illaria Ramelli, who write powerfully in favour of the idea of the apokatastasis – the restoration of creation to a condition of perfection (a type of Christian Universalism)
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Sorry, I think I didn’t express myself well; by radical forgiveness in that comment, I meant the concept that every sin can be forgiven, no matter how terrible. As to universalism, I like what I know of David Bentley Hart. I believed in hell when I believed in Catholicism, but I was very very partial to the ‘Dare We Hope’ school of Balthasar. Bishop Barron also holds this position, and I admire him greatly. I could never get behind Massa Damnata.
 
Modesty said:
Sorry, I think I didn’t express myself well; by radical forgiveness in that comment, I meant the concept that every sin can be forgiven, no matter how terrible.
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Jesus is innocent of the crimes he has been accused of. He is condemned to death and crucified. Yet he still prays, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

If I killed someone, that is not the end of the story. God can raise them up to a greater good life after death. We might live a hundred years on Earth, then we have the opportunity of an eternity in heaven with our Lord. Forgiveness is a profound subject, I don't believe that any of us deserve salvation, we all fall short. We are all dependant on the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.
 
EricPH said:
How do you read forgiveness in the Lord's prayer?
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The Lord's forgiveness is Infinite and Boundless ... as ours should be.

I'm not sure that we're telling the Father what to do, perhaps more that given the prayer by Jesus, we tend to recite it, without too much wondering about what it means ... I doubt many believe they are telling God what to do ...
 
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