Absolute Truth

EricPH said:
Every time we say the Lord's prayer, we Tell God what to do!

God, forgive me, in exactly the same way I forgive my enemy. Which has to mean, if I cant forgive, then don't forgive me in the same way
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EricPH said:
Do the millions of Christians who regularly say this prayer, understand the implications of what we are saying?
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I think the intent of the prayer is please forgive me as I forgive others because you forgive me.

I know my prayers are as follows:

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus” (Philippians 6-7, NKJV).
 
EricPH said:
Forgiveness is a profound subject, I don't believe that any of us deserve salvation, we all fall short. We are all dependant on the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.
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To err is human, to forgive divine :)

Although I do believe we are all inherently good.
 
Thomas said:
The Lord's forgiveness is Infinite and Boundless ... as ours should be.
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Agreed, but it does not come naturally to us, the default position seems to be one of righteous anger and the need for justice.

Thomas said:
'm not sure that we're telling the Father what to do,
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If the prayer was please forgive me my trespasses, we would be okay. When we add, as we forgive those who trespass against us, we are adding terms and conditions to our request..

Thomas said:
we tend to recite it, without too much wondering about what it means ... I doubt many believe they are telling God what to do ...
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When we reflect on the words more deeply, I believe it gives us cause for concern.
 
EricPH said:
I left the Catholic Church as a teenager, there were too many temptations in the world, and I didn't want to be constantly reminded; that I shouldn't succumb to temptation.
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EricPH said:
God, forgive me, in exactly the same way I forgive my enemy. Which has to mean, if I cant forgive, then don't forgive me in the same way.
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Now, you are being like the Catholic Church. I have the temptation to hurt my enemy. I am an atheist with no God to fear.
 
juantoo3 said:
How so? I don't follow...
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We ask God to forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. I believe this is challenging us to be more forgiving, when we might rather take on the righteous need for the transgressor to be punished.

Just my 2c.
 
Aupmanyav said:
I have the temptation to hurt my enemy. I am an atheist with no God to fear.
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The fear of God is the start of wisdom. If we don't fear the law of the land, because we think we can get away with a crime, we should fear God, because we cannot hide from God. The fear of God is the start of wisdom, if we pursue wisdom, I believe it leads us to the love, mercy, grace and forgiveness of God.
 
EricPH said:
We ask God to forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. I believe this is challenging us to be more forgiving, when we might rather take on the righteous need for the transgressor to be punished.

Just my 2c.
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Forgive that ye may be forgiven...I get that. It is all part of Do Unto Others as you wish done unto yourself.

That doesn't mean I will be quick to forgive someone who murders my loved one, especially when the coward hides and shows no remorse or regret. Such a criminal perpetrator does not deserve to walk among civilized people.

All of you advocating forgiving everybody of everything are promoting a fanciful absolute. I am pointing out practical reality.

"Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor

Intent plays a significant role. Remorse and regret play a significant role.
 
juantoo3 said:
All of you advocating forgiving everybody of everything are promoting a fanciful absolute. I am pointing out practical reality.
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There's a difference between spiritually forgiving someone of everything and letting someone get away with doing bad things with no consequences. I believe in prison reform, but I'm not suggesting letting dangerous people roam the streets. If I can share a personal example, I was abused by a man as a child. It turned me into a ball of hatred and anger. However, I came to feel deep empathy for my abuser. It made me more sad than angry looking back at the event, because how disturbed and deeply unhappy would someone have to be to do that to a child? He could've done so much more with his life, and God wanted so differently for him. And still God loves him as much as he loves me. Doesn't mean I absolve him of what he did, but I can see he's not an evil, mindless monster, just a very sick and disturbed man. So, for me, forgiveness isn't just a high ideal that I promote without understanding how hard it is.

(Oh, and no, he never voiced any regret. The opposite actually).
 
EricPH said:
The fear of God is the start of wisdom. If we don't fear the law of the land, because we think we can get away with a crime, we should fear God, because we cannot hide from God. The fear of God is the start of wisdom, if we pursue wisdom, I believe it leads us to the love, mercy, grace and forgiveness of God.
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To add to this.. God assigns governing authorities as His agents.

Romans 13:1-2
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves

Atheist or not . Everyone still answers to Gods authority.
 
juantoo3 said:
Forgive that ye may be forgiven...I get that. It is all part of Do Unto Others as you wish done unto yourself.

That doesn't mean I will be quick to forgive someone who murders my loved one, especially when the coward hides and shows no remorse or regret. Such a criminal perpetrator does not deserve to walk among civilized people.

All of you advocating forgiving everybody of everything are promoting a fanciful absolute. I am pointing out practical reality.

"Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor

Intent plays a significant role. Remorse and regret play a significant role.
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I understand this because I've had people do great harm to those I love. GREAT harm. I had vengeance in my heart and for me it wasn't until I made the choice to forgive that God healed that bitter root inside me.. it took years but I look at these people's lives and boy does it suck. They may not have been prosecuted by the law or dealt violence from me but they have a really sucky life. I believe God when He says vengeance is mine.

I also believe with all my heart that no one gets away with anything.. if they get away with it in this life they sure will not in the next if they don't repent. Imagine giving an accounting to the Lord with unrepentant sin that harms another person. I believe that will happen to believers and unbelievers.
 
At the South African Truth & Reconciliation Commission headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, after apartheid ended, people were forgiving their torturers and I could never understand how or why until someone explained during the Commission that without forgiveness he was bound to the trauma of the past and unable to move on.

Forgiveness of the other to obtain freedom for the self. But it's not so easy to forgive injury to someone we love?
 
juantoo3 said:
If there is no afterlife (if the soul does not continue after the death of the flesh body), then what is the point of (any) religion?
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In the old days, there was a population of parrots living in Northern Europe, called the Sun Parrots. Not only because they had a bright yellow dot on their breasts. They liked and worshipped the sun. When automn approached and the sun lost its power, they used to to fly in the direction of the sun to come closer to it, and reached Africa. And when the sun there turned on the north side, they flew in this direction, so that they could enjoy the long days with the sun in the north.

They were very intelligent and thought a lot about the world.

One day, they found out that the sun is indeed very far away, so far away that it doesn't make any difference whether they fly in this direction or not. They decided to save their forces and stay in the north.

But Winter came, and all was covered with snow, and there was nothing to eat and it was cold. This was the sad end of the Sun Parrots.
 
RJM said:
At the South African Truth & Reconciliation Commission headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, after apartheid ended, people were forgiving their torturers and I could never understand how or why until someone explained during the Commission that without forgiveness he was bound to the trauma of the past and unable to move on.
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On this day 13th Sept 1922, my mum and grandparents escaped a genocide. Smyrna was burnt to the ground, thousands died, they spent about twenty years as refugees around the middle east, coming to England during WW2. I can never remember a time when my mum or grandparents were bitter and angry, about what they had been through.

Forgiveness is about how we heal ourselves, it is not so much about letting the other person off the hook.

The following link is to the 'Forgiveness Project, it is about the kind of stories that would have been heard by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The story is graphic and extreme, you only have to look at the womans face, so don't feel obliged to click on the link. However, even under extreme violence, rape and the murder of her children, there is the story of coming to terms with forgiving.

www.theforgivenessproject.com

Satta Joe - The Forgiveness Project

Satta Joe was a victim of the Sierra Leone Civil War (1991-2002).
www.theforgivenessproject.com www.theforgivenessproject.com
 
EricPH said:
Forgiveness is about how we heal ourselves, it is not so much about letting the other person off the hook.
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I think so. Really

And perhaps it's hardest of all to forgive ourselves, for hurt we have caused to the innocent and to those who love us most, even to animals -- though at the time perhaps we did not know better and did not understand?
EricPH said:
The story is graphic and extreme, you only have to look at the womans face, so don't feel obliged to click on the link.
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Thanks for the content warning. I'll pass on it for now :(
 
RJM said:
And perhaps it's hardest of all to forgive ourselves, for hurt we have caused to the innocent and to those who love us most, even to animals -- though at the time perhaps we did not know better and did not understand?
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This, 100%. I've always thought guilt was the worst emotion. I think also that guilt is so complex, spiritually. It can be a wakeup call, to turn from the things we're doing towards a better path, but in excess it can also be very spiritually damaging.
 
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