Absolute Truth

To you...is this existence a dream, or is it real?

I mean, what is a dream in this context? Do you mean a literal dream? If it is a dream, who is the dreamer? I think that if life is just all one big dream there's no point asking any religious/philosophical questions at all haha. So no, I definitely don't think existence is a dream.
 
These questions remind me of what little I know of koans.
Quite unintentional, but I do see what you're saying.

To so many people, if they can't see it, or measure it, or at least read something about it in print...it doesn't exist.

I think modern, first world humans rely too much on the written word, and we have largely forgotten our experiential past - other than the fleeting glimpses RJM pointed to. Words are not equipped to provide an immersive experience. A good writer can attempt to do so, setting an ambiance, evoking a situation, painting a picture to place the characters into...even then language is limiting, and fails to fully facilitate the experience. Granted, a fictional experience when we are talking of reality, which would be a genuine experience. Point being that words do well enough in most situations to point to an ineffable existing reality, but cannot by their nature create the experience. Words are the menu, immersive experience is the meal.
 
Quite unintentional, but I do see what you're saying.

To so many people, if they can't see it, or measure it, or at least read something about it in print...it doesn't exist.

I think modern, first world humans rely too much on the written word, and we have largely forgotten our experiential past - other than the fleeting glimpses RJM pointed to. Words are not equipped to provide an immersive experience. A good writer can attempt to do so, setting an ambiance, evoking a situation, painting a picture to place the characters into...even then language is limiting, and fails to fully facilitate the experience. Granted, a fictional experience when we are talking of reality, which would be a genuine experience. Point being that words do well enough in most situations to point to an ineffable existing reality, but cannot by their nature create the experience. Words are the menu, immersive experience is the meal.
I think I get what you're saying. Honestly, I think transcendent experience in general is neglected in the modern world. Didn't Aquinas quit writing because he had a mystical experience that made him think his written works couldn't measure up to it?
 
Actually, I am interested in the Baha'i faith! I briefly considered conversion to it after leaving Catholicism. Unfortunately, Shoghi Effendi put me off it. I still think its a beautiful religion in many ways, but it is one of those religions that does claim absolute truth and it didn't hold up to (my personal) scrutiny. I think religions that claim absolute truth require more intense investigation than those that don't.
I think one needs to find context when we discuss absolute truth. God is the source of all Truth. We have no knowledge of the Essence of God, as such we are limited as that knowledge is barred, even Jesus Christ did not know the Essence of God, Jesus Christ revealed God unto us.

I personally do not see the Faith in the light of absolute truth, as I am a limited human, I see all Faith is Relative to our nature, our nurture and most of all our submission to and choices of Faith.

Always happy to share and discuss and agree to disagree.

Regards Tony
 
I had addressed 3 replies with thoughts I have found to be relevant to your OP. It was the 4th reply you have responded to. 😉

I have noted another post I will reply to.

All the best, Regards Tony

Sorry, I only saw your first response. I definitely wasn't purposely ignoring them. I assume by "the Manifestations of God" this is in the Baha'i context?
 
I think one needs to find context when we discuss absolute truth. God is the source of all Truth. We have no knowledge of the Essence of God, as such we are limited as that knowledge is barred, even Jesus Christ did not know the Essence of God, Jesus Christ revealed God unto us.

I personally do not see the Faith in the light of absolute truth, as I am a limited human, I see all Faith is Relative to our nature, our nurture and most of all our submission to and choices of Faith.

Always happy to share and discuss and agree to disagree.

Regards Tony

I definitely agree that God is the source of truth, being convinced of His existence. Who God is, what religion most accurately (if any) conceives of Him, and what the truth He has transmitted to us actually is, are far more complicated questions imo.
 
Sorry, I only saw your first response. I definitely wasn't purposely ignoring them. I assume by "the Manifestations of God" this is in the Baha'i context?
It is good to have a chat with you. Thanks for responding.

'Manifestations of God' is a new term mentioned in the Baha'i Writings. I personally see is an evolution in our understanding of those who are the 'Annointed Ones' (Christ) of God.

It has gone from a Prophet, to a Messenger to a Manifestation of God, yet they are all One in the same Holy Spirit they gave from God.

I see this is the key to the apex of Truth relative to our human condition and I explain why. (Abdul'baha gives these talks)

We are as a spiritual embryo in the womb of the world where we get a chance to grow our spiritual limbs before we are born into the world of lights. Abdul'baha explains this as a metephor of how a child in this world develops all that it requires for birth into this material world. We can then consider how much does a child in the womb understand about the truths of this world? Absolutely nothing.

So any truth we think we may find in this matrix, while we develop our spiritual limbs, is but extremely limited and only relative to our current condition.

Baha'u'llah offered this as a meditation and there are a few others that offer the same thoughts.

"...The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”..."

So much can be discussed, an exciting subject. Regards Tony
 
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I definitely agree that God is the source of truth, being convinced of His existence. Who God is, what religion most accurately (if any) conceives of Him, and what the truth He has transmitted to us actually is, are far more complicated questions imo.
I see you have stated the purpose and meaning of life. Our purpose is to know and Love God, and to obtain that knowledge, God has given us the freewill choice of faith and the capacity to find the answers.

We are made in the image of the Messengers, we find them by finding our own true selves. It is a journey of self reflection with our guides being the Annointed Ones, the Christs. A chance to be born from the human spirit into Christ the Holy Spirit.

Regards Tony
 
It is good to have a chat with you. Thanks for responding.

'Manifestations of God' is a new term mentioned in the Baha'i Writings. I personally see is an evolution in our understanding of those who are the 'Annointed Ones' (Christ) of God.

It has gone from a Prophet, to a Messenger to a Manifestation of God, yet they are all One in the same Holy Spirit they gave from God.

I see this is the key to the apex of Truth relative to our human condition and I explain why. (Abdul'baha gives these talks)

We are as a spiritual embryo in the womb of the world where we get a chance to grow our spiritual limbs before we are born into the world of lights. Abdul'baha explains this as a metephor of how a child in this world develops all that it requires for birth into this material world. We can then consider how much does a child in the womb understand about the truths of this world? Absolutely nothing.

So any truth we think we may find in this matrix, while we develop our spiritual limbs, is but extremely limited and only relative to our current condition.

Baha'u'llah offered this as a meditation and there are a few others that offer the same thoughts.

"...The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”..."

So much can be discussed, an exciting subject. Regards Tony

From my (admittedly limited) understanding Baha'i takes a supersessionist view of the Abrahamic faiths? As in, it is the latest legitimate iteration of the Abrahamic religions, since Islam. I struggle a bit with the Baha'i texts but what you've quoted is quite interesting. Is there any Baha'i scripture/text you particularly recommend I should read for a better understanding of its spiritual insights?
 
From my (admittedly limited) understanding Baha'i takes a supersessionist view of the Abrahamic faiths? As in, it is the latest legitimate iteration of the Abrahamic religions, since Islam. I struggle a bit with the Baha'i texts but what you've quoted is quite interesting. Is there any Baha'i scripture/text you particularly recommend I should read for a better understanding of its spiritual insights?
I did not know of the word 'supersessionist' so have used that link to understand what it is saying.

I do not see it is fully applicable, as God has given promises that must be fulfilled, and I see is being fulfilled. It was promised that the Jews would be gifted back the Holy Land and the Holy Land was returned to the Jews and I see this Prophecy is still unfolding. It commenced in 1844 with the 'Edict of Toleration', which took away the restriction and enabled the process to begin.

I do see God sends a new Covernant to man in each age, the Bible offers this as many are called, but few are chosen. This would require lots of thoughts and discussions.

In connection to your OP about absolute truth, I see that is relative to our capacity to embrace the Oneness of God

"All these divisions we see on all sides, all these disputes and opposition, are caused because men cling to ritual and outward observances, and forget the simple, underlying truth. It is the outward practices of religion that are so different, and it is they that cause disputes and enmity--while the reality is always the same, and one. The Reality is the Truth, and truth has no division. Truth is God's guidance, it is the light of the world, it is love, it is mercy. These attributes of truth are also human virtues inspired by the Holy Spirit." `Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 120-1.

I would offer this link to any person looking for more information about the Baha'i Faith. https://www.bahai.org/ as it enables a person to choose to follow their own personal interests without any of my own personal influences.

Regards Tony
 
I do not see it is fully applicable, as God has given promises that must be fulfilled, and I see is being fulfilled. It was promised that the Jews would be gifted back the Holy Land and the Holy Land was returned to the Jews and I see this Prophecy is still unfolding. It commenced in 1844 with the 'Edict of Toleration', which took away the restriction and enabled the process to begin.

Prophecies are another tricky topic when it comes to truth. Some religions try to use fulfilled prophecies to prove their perspective on truth but I often find that prophecies are vague enough to be 'fulfilled' fairly easily.

"All these divisions we see on all sides, all these disputes and opposition, are caused because men cling to ritual and outward observances, and forget the simple, underlying truth. It is the outward practices of religion that are so different, and it is they that cause disputes and enmity--while the reality is always the same, and one. The Reality is the Truth, and truth has no division. Truth is God's guidance, it is the light of the world, it is love, it is mercy. These attributes of truth are also human virtues inspired by the Holy Spirit." `Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 120-1.

I like the idea of this. I think it means that "the simple, underlying truth" is God? But again, religions have such wildly different conceptions of Him that actually actively conflict with each other. The God of Baha'i is not the God of Judaism, Catholicism, Islam, Sihki, etc. etc.
 
Prophecies are another tricky topic when it comes to truth. Some religions try to use fulfilled prophecies to prove their perspective on truth but I often find that prophecies are vague enough to be 'fulfilled' fairly easily.
They can indeed be a quandary, yet they will have to be fulfilled, as Jesus said that is the test of a true and false prophet, and as they are from the Bible, logically they have to be fulfilled, or they were made falsely.

Thus then becomes a mathematical probability comes into play, as there are many prophecies needing fulfillment.

Example, we know something will come from the East, by the way of the Gate, a throne will be set in Elam and Micah 7:12 says "In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

How many people can fulfil those requirements, who have made a claim?

It is an interesting topic, even if it is subjective.

Regards Tony
 
I like the idea of this. I think it means that "the simple, underlying truth" is God? But again, religions have such wildly different conceptions of Him that actually actively conflict with each other. The God of Baha'i is not the God of Judaism, Catholicism, Islam, Sihki, etc. etc.
Personally I have left all that conflict go and found the connection is One God, the logic to me is pure and simple. It is frustrating for me when this logic is overcome by inbuilt doctrine. I was very saddened that my mother, a born again Christian, rejected the Faith I was gifted, with absolutely no search, all based on her attachment to doctrines.

I see it is our relative Truth that veils the Absolute.

Regards Tony
 
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I totally get this! However this is one thing I've been contemplating since leaving Catholicism that poses a bit of a problem for me. If faith is between God and a person, how do we know what's true?
The closer we get to G-d, the more we become inspired.
God, the Most High, guides whomsoever He wills.
It is our duty to sincerely seek truth.
Being a "lapsed Catholic". you should know that Jesus taught us "knock, and you will be answered".
..so it all depends how earnest we are in our plight to find G-d.

Different religions say that their God or gods proclaim different truths that are totally conflicting.
Mmm, and that is why I don't think that we should be forced to accept any particular creed.

I think its noble when people try and unite practitioners of different faiths/promote interfaith peace by saying things like 'oh, well we all love God, we're just following him in our own unique ways" but that doesn't seem compatible with what many religions teach.
G-d is able to inspire us with whatever path He wills.
Life is a spiritual journey.
One does not have to stick to a creed through loyalty to a tribe .. or through fear.
We should fear G-d, and not people.

Like, in Catholicism Jesus is God and it's not okay to say that the Catholic God is the same as, say, the Baha'i God. Another complication is that how do I know what's the 'real' truth about a subject if my faith is completely personal and not mediated by an organized religion? For example, wine is super important to Catholicism but banned in Mormonism. Who's right, and if I don't have some authority to give me that truth, how could I ever figure it out?
Our intention is more important than what a particular creed might hold.
It is our intention that G-d looks at, on the day of judgement..
..and our intention that enlightens us towards our direction in life.

That's why I think the issue of who has the real, absolute truth is so complicated when it comes to religion, because there are some black and white issues; for example, either alcohol is evil or its not.
Taking that as an example, are the evils of alcohol worse than its benefits?
Those that cannot be moderate in their consumption of alcohol, should refrain.
There is a difference between being an alcoholic, or being drunk .. and having the occasional
drink at weddings etc.
 
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