Absolute Truth

[Modesty]

They can indeed be a quandary, yet they will have to be fulfilled, as Jesus said that is the test of a true and false prophet, and as they are from the Bible, logically they have to be fulfilled, or they were made falsely.

Thus then becomes a mathematical probability comes into play, as there are many prophecies needing fulfillment.

Example, we know something will come from the East, by the way of the Gate, a throne will be set in Elam and Micah 7:12 says "In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

How many people can fulfil those requirements, who have made a claim?

It is an interesting topic, even if it is subjective.

Regards Tony

I guess it makes it easier to accept these prophecies if you're already coming from an Abrahamic background. It requires you to accept the OT first (and the Christian interpretation of it), then the NT, then the Quran, then the Bab, and finally Baháʼu'lláh and his family. I don't even accept the spiritual teachings of the OT as absolute truth anymore, so I'm nowhere near being convinced of any of the other Abrahamic prophecies, whether made by Jesus or anyone else. But I like learning about different religions' prophecies regardless of whether I accept them or not.

 

[Modesty]

The closer we get to G-d, the more we become inspired.
God, the Most High, guides whomsoever He wills.
It is our duty to sincerely seek truth.
Being a "lapsed Catholic". you should know that Jesus taught us "knock, and you will be answered".
..so it all depends how earnest we are in our plight to find G-d.

Definitely, although sometimes I feel like He is frustratingly silent no matter how hard I knock!

Our intention is more important than what a particular creed might hold.
It is our intention that G-d looks at, on the day of judgement..
..and our intention that enlightens us towards our direction in life.

This is probably a good way to look at things; I think it might just be a personal trait of mine that I like very concrete answers. I no longer believe in hell, so its not so much a worry of "oh, is getting this wrong going to damn me?" but more of a stubborn desire to know what the
the truth is, because I believe the truth must be knowable.

Taking that as an example, are the evils of alcohol worse than its benefits?
Those that cannot be moderate in their consumption of alcohol, should refrain.
There is a difference between being an alcoholic, or being drunk .. and having the occasional
drink at weddings etc.

For sure. I think the lack of nuance in some religions (Mormons can't even have coffee or tea!) both puzzles and appeals to me in a way. I have spiritual qualms with it, but at the same time I do admire their unwillingness to compromise on what they think is a moral issue. But really, I don't see the moral outrage with drinking tea (or a glass of wine for that matter, although I think that's a more complicated issue).

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I guess it makes it easier to accept these prophecies if you're already coming from an Abrahamic background. It requires you to accept the OT first (and the Christian interpretation of it), then the NT, then the Quran, then the Bab, and finally Baháʼu'lláh and his family. I don't even accept the spiritual teachings of the OT as absolute truth anymore, so I'm nowhere near being convinced of any of the other Abrahamic prophecies, whether made by Jesus or anyone else. But I like learning about different religions' prophecies regardless of whether I accept them or not.

I personally see we have to go beyond past interpretation and look with new eyes and hear with new ears. The struggle we face with finding truth is God given, it is a bounty to our soul, it is growing pains, a neccesary process for our development.

These type of passages from the Bible, to me are crucial in understanding this world and its purpose.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.."

The Word becomes the 'day of judgement', the standard that we are to live by, which God does renew from age to age.

So I leave you with a thought, if God has renewed that Word, as promised by Christ, then all the current personal and global conflict and loss of direction, is a direct repercussion of our neglect to embrace that Word.

Happy to discuss further, I hope you find the peace you are after.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I no longer believe in hell, so its not so much a worry of "oh, is getting this wrong going to damn me?" but more of a stubborn desire to know what the truth is, because I believe the truth must be knowable.

Good on you. I have come to see Heaven and hell are conditions of the Spirit, there is no independent force of evil. We are all Loved by God and are all under God's Mercy and Judgement.

Heaven in nearness to God, hell is our remoteness from God.

That is another great subject, one that has been clouded by making Satan (our lower godless nature) a power over our choices, instead of submitting our choices unto God.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.."

Wouldn't this mean a personal, living relationship with (the holy) Spirit, rather than the words written already 200 years ago by Baha'u'llah, and set to continue for the next 800 years as the final, infallible word of God?

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3

Do you take this to mean adherence to the writings of Baha'u'llah? Do you take 'the Lord' here to mean Baha'u'llah?

 

[RJM]

For me the living (holy) spirit -- God --guides me personally and brings small miracles. Prayer for me is not the ritual repetition of scriptural words, but asking (God's) angels to guide my life, to guide my actual steps, and even if I do take the wrong path, God brings it around to right?

EDIT: Just words trying to explain

 

[Modesty]

I personally see we have to go beyond past interpretation and look with new eyes and hear with new ears. The struggle we face with finding truth is God given, it is a bounty to our soul, it is growing pains, a neccesary process for our development.

I understand what you mean, but to accept and belong to any of the Abrahamic faiths we have do have to accept an interpretation of the scriptures. I wholeheartedly agree from experience that the struggle with truth is necessary though. It was a prolonged battle with scrupulosity that got me to step back from my previous faith and its doctrines a bit and reevaluate what I ACTUALLY believed about God.

So I leave you with a thought, if God has renewed that Word, as promised by Christ, then all the current personal and global conflict and loss of direction, is a direct repercussion of our neglect to embrace that Word.

I personally agree that declining religiosity is a problem but I wouldn't agree that we all need to accept the Baha'i view of things to have world peace.

 

[Modesty]

We are all Loved by God

This is one statement I have no qualms with accepting as truth

 

[wil]

This is one statement I have no qualms with accepting as truth

And a tough one for atheists and agnostics obviously.

But yes, from my perspective, gravity affects us all.

 

[RJM]

I personally agree that declining religiosity is a problem but I wouldn't agree that we all need to accept the Baha'i view of things to have world peace.

Baha'u'llah claims to be the one who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A bit of dubious scriptural quote mining doesn't quite meet the standard, imo

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.."

This quote comes in context of the rest of Hebrews 4 of the living and present Christ as the both the sacrifice and as the (great high) priest after Melchizidech. It was not actually written by Paul, although that fact is not relevant to the spiritual value of the letter, imo

 

[juantoo3]

I think I get what you're saying. Honestly, I think transcendent experience in general is neglected in the modern world. Didn't Aquinas quit writing because he had a mystical experience that made him think his written works couldn't measure up to it?

You would need to touch base with Thomas here, he is the one deep into the early Church Fathers. I know only enough to get myself into trouble.

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

I've been pondering the concept of absolute truth in regards to religion recently and I'm curious about other people's understanding of this. Namely, whether you believe it exists or not or if its something your religious tradition teaches. For example, my past religious affiliation was traditional Catholicism, and the absolute, infallible truth of the Catholic Church was massively important.

I'm actively looking for another religious tradition to follow and I admit I find it hard to understand religions that don't seem to have a concept of absolute truth, such as neo-paganism. To me, something is either true or false. For example, there is a God or there isn't, etc. etc.

And if its true, it should be universally true (I've never understand the 'it's the right religion for me, but not for others' idea). This might just be the way my brain is trained to think because of Catholicism though. I'm interested in hearing other opinions and thoughts on this topic!

"To me, something is either true or false."

Duality is an illusion . . . we all assign meaning to the objective universe, ideas, and archetypes/first forms through our subjective reality. Nothing is what it seems to be, the only Truth is what you decide there is.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I understand what you mean, but to accept and belong to any of the Abrahamic faiths we have do have to accept an interpretation of the scriptures. I wholeheartedly agree from experience that the struggle with truth is necessary though. It was a prolonged battle with scrupulosity that got me to step back from my previous faith and its doctrines a bit and reevaluate what I ACTUALLY believed about God.


I personally agree that declining religiosity is a problem but I wouldn't agree that we all need to accept the Baha'i view of things to have world peace.

I will offer a couple of thoughts in return, as yes, God does not compel any person to embrace a Message, it is always up to us to find and embrace what God has given us, that really is our ultimate truth, to be born from the flesh into the Spirit that is of God.

I will share what Baha'u'llah revealed to us about humanity as a whole finding unity without embracing the Spirit of this age.

"....The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded..." ("Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh", p. 286)

That is the Quandary we face, we have been told that ever increasing waves of convulsions will inflict humanity, compelling the Governments of the world to gather and find the way to initiate as a whole, global actions that will guide our way to the peace and security of all humanity.

A key sign that age is upon us is the embracing of a Universal Auxiliary language to be taught in all Nations, a sign that is yet to be manifested.

One thing I see is starting to unfold is a warning given back in the 1800's. The great Varqa who felt honoured to have met Baha’u’llah on several occasions wrote once asking Baha’u’llah about “how will the Cause of God be universally adopted by mankind?"

"Baha’u’llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts. As a result, there would be enormous bloodshed throughout the world. Then the wise from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religious prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice. Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal The Revelation of Baha’u’llah Vol. 4, p. 56

There is much to offer, much to discuss. More than happy to do just that.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Wouldn't this mean a personal, living relationship with (the holy) Spirit, rather than the words written already 200 years ago by Baha'u'llah, and set to continue for the next 800 years as the final, infallible word of God?

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
Proverbs 3

Do you take this to mean adherence to the writings of Baha'u'llah? Do you take 'the Lord' here to mean Baha'u'llah?

The key answer to this RJM is that there is only one LORD our God. There is only One God that Annoints the Messengers with the Holy Spirit that is One with God.

All the Names and Attributes we have come to know God through, all merge into One Pure White Light.

So when we praise Jesus, we praise Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, for we are praying "O God, and the God of all Names, and Maker of the heavens".

So with all the Messengers we can,

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil."
Proverbs 3

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

So when we praise Jesus, we praise Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, for we are praying "O God, and the God of all Names, and Maker of the heavens".

Yeah yeah ... sigh

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Baha'u'llah claims to be the one who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A bit of dubious scriptural quote mining doesn't quite meet the standard, imo

This quote comes in context of the rest of Hebrews 4 of the living and present Christ as the both the sacrifice and as the (great high) priest after Melchizidech. It was not actually written by Paul, although that fact is not relevant to the spiritual value of the letter, imo

The key here is you have stated the living and present Christ and I agree 100%.

The quandary put to us by Baha'u'llah is that he is Christ the Son, returned as Christ the Father.

We are talking if the same Christ Spirit, the Holy Spirit, "Annointed One".

It is the Spirit that is life, the flesh amounts to nothing. When the Spirit leaves our body, this flesh is dead, but Jesus said and proved, we can be born again from the flesh, into the Spirit, while in the flesh.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Yeah yeah ... sigh

Or Hallelujah praised be to God, the LORD of all the worlds.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Or Hallelujah praised be to God, the LORD of all the worlds.

Regards Tony

"Trust in: Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and of course Baha'u'llah -- with all your heart,

And lean not on your own understanding;

In all your ways acknowledge: Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and of course Baha'u'llah

And: Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and Baha'u'llah shall direct your paths.

Do not be wise in your own eyes;

Fear: Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and Baha'u'llah and depart from evil."

 

[RJM]

The quandary put to us by Baha'u'llah is that he is Christ the Son, returned as Christ the Father.

Yep.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Baha'u'llah is even greater than Jesus ...

 

[RJM]

The list of new messiahs is a very long one, as you know.
Lots of words; lots of scriptural manipulations
Anyway ...

It's been a busy day
Logging out now ...